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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 9240065" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Agon is a very interesting case study on this subject (as is Tier 4 Blades in the Dark vs the earlier Tiers and the aforementioned D&D 4e). I'm just going to link to my post-mortem thoughts in pemerton's thread on the game so I don't have to rewrite. I think Agon's "difficulty dial" could trivially resolve my laments via the ways I mentioned in that thread. If we were to bin Agon into Neotrad rather than Story Now, it would definitely be in that difficulty curve and in the not-particularly-difficult gamification of it.</p><p></p><p>On your last sentence (bolded), I guess I would say <em>in both Story Now and Neotrad play the players actively control elements of framing</em>. However, there are differences and similarities in form, but the function is where the the two diverge:</p><p></p><p><strong>FORM</strong>: Story Now players and Neotrad players both control elements of situation framing via PC build and possibly advencement scheme (eg answer this thematic/premise-based question in play and get currency/xp); this is the "signaling element (from player to GM or from system to player to GM)." However, while Story Now players only get situation-authoring input via kickers (frame this situation and then the GM plays the opposition via system-prescribed means) or via "GM asks questions and uses the answers", Neotrad players get rife/profound (perhaps nearing total or total...and this can either by systemitized or via social contract) access to ensure outcomes/consequences (or at least the scheme of them a la "forfeiture of low stakes outcomes for ensuring the attainment of high stakes outcomes") and map character conception onto play.</p><p></p><p><strong>FUNCTION</strong>: The point of player input into situation-framing in both NeoTrad and Story Now play is to ensure player protagonism. However, where they diverge is that, in Story Now play its to ensure play is about the crucible of "PC motivations/goals being opposed aggressively by threats/dangers/antagonism" and then we discover how character, setting, and follow-on situation change by these collisions of opposing forces. Neotrad play is mostly or totally coalitional here and that comes via GM & player working in concert and/or system serving as a mediator for that coalition. The GM provides the metaplot and the player provides the character and those participants (possibly along with system) put in the work to ensure the dynamics of the crucible outlined above don't deface player conception of character (and possibly of metaplot...I think that is a case-by-case basis). </p><p></p><p></p><p>Agon is Story Now <strong>Lite</strong>...its as sufficiently lite/defanged that it teeters significantly away from the above mentioned crucible. Its like a cozy crucible! So not my jam really (again, I had fun...our game was fun...but I don't see myself running Agon again). Again, an easy fix for that is Strife level and changing Wrath to be like Divine Favor.</p><p></p><p>EDIT: I’m trivially convinced that Agon plays, and therefore is, Neotrad from the players’ side. So if that is your appraisal, you can take a <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="👍" title="Thumbs up :thumbsup:" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f44d.png" data-shortname=":thumbsup:" /> from me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 9240065, member: 6696971"] Agon is a very interesting case study on this subject (as is Tier 4 Blades in the Dark vs the earlier Tiers and the aforementioned D&D 4e). I'm just going to link to my post-mortem thoughts in pemerton's thread on the game so I don't have to rewrite. I think Agon's "difficulty dial" could trivially resolve my laments via the ways I mentioned in that thread. If we were to bin Agon into Neotrad rather than Story Now, it would definitely be in that difficulty curve and in the not-particularly-difficult gamification of it. On your last sentence (bolded), I guess I would say [I]in both Story Now and Neotrad play the players actively control elements of framing[/I]. However, there are differences and similarities in form, but the function is where the the two diverge: [B]FORM[/B]: Story Now players and Neotrad players both control elements of situation framing via PC build and possibly advencement scheme (eg answer this thematic/premise-based question in play and get currency/xp); this is the "signaling element (from player to GM or from system to player to GM)." However, while Story Now players only get situation-authoring input via kickers (frame this situation and then the GM plays the opposition via system-prescribed means) or via "GM asks questions and uses the answers", Neotrad players get rife/profound (perhaps nearing total or total...and this can either by systemitized or via social contract) access to ensure outcomes/consequences (or at least the scheme of them a la "forfeiture of low stakes outcomes for ensuring the attainment of high stakes outcomes") and map character conception onto play. [B]FUNCTION[/B]: The point of player input into situation-framing in both NeoTrad and Story Now play is to ensure player protagonism. However, where they diverge is that, in Story Now play its to ensure play is about the crucible of "PC motivations/goals being opposed aggressively by threats/dangers/antagonism" and then we discover how character, setting, and follow-on situation change by these collisions of opposing forces. Neotrad play is mostly or totally coalitional here and that comes via GM & player working in concert and/or system serving as a mediator for that coalition. The GM provides the metaplot and the player provides the character and those participants (possibly along with system) put in the work to ensure the dynamics of the crucible outlined above don't deface player conception of character (and possibly of metaplot...I think that is a case-by-case basis). Agon is Story Now [B]Lite[/B]...its as sufficiently lite/defanged that it teeters significantly away from the above mentioned crucible. Its like a cozy crucible! So not my jam really (again, I had fun...our game was fun...but I don't see myself running Agon again). Again, an easy fix for that is Strife level and changing Wrath to be like Divine Favor. EDIT: I’m trivially convinced that Agon plays, and therefore is, Neotrad from the players’ side. So if that is your appraisal, you can take a 👍 from me. [/QUOTE]
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