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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9242073" data-attributes="member: 71699">Espen expressly defined ergodic to mean "literature in which nontrivial effort is required for the reader to traverse the text." (Emphasis mine.)I disagree. The gamist does not simply want the achievement, they want to achieve the achievement. Say the achievement is my king is in checkmate: you win. A gamist does not simply want the board to be in that state. As the great boardgame designer, Reiner Knizia, once saidThe gamist wants to achieve checkmate only through playing. Finding out through play whether they or I will win... most importantly experiencing the cut and thrust of the moves we will make to get there.Is your thought here that the catchphrase "play to find out" ought to be preserved for narrativism? To the extent that there is some justice to that, I would refer to Edwards' observation that(Emphasis mine.) Playing to find out as audiences of our in-the-moment authorings is a general role-playing principle. It is that principle that is promoted and leveraged in strong-neotrad.</blockquote>