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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 9245986" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Although, we've had this conversation around this subject in the past (because I definitely have a large amount of misgivings and empirical disagreements about what I see as your tendency to smear the boundaries of extremely important distinctions while performing a very zoomed-out analysis), I should note that my post above wasn't to you. On the whole, while I still have disagreements around the edges, my opinion is that your efforts in this thread have been good...and I think its really, really, really garbage that some people have crapped on you in this thread. So consider this me standing up for you against the crap you were taking early in the thread and some that you've taken recently. /Leo Toast GIF.</p><p></p><p>That said...</p><p></p><p>Forget ludonarrative, forget ludonarrative dissonance, forget that the concept is imported from video game critique and, if it has any application for TTRPGs, it may only pertain to techniques and play dynamics inherent to Trad RPGing (where there necessarily features an outsized component of exposition, plot dump, bread-crumbing, plot-point-noding which are mechanically non-interactive).</p><p></p><p>The blow-by-blow, moment-to-moment experience (cognitively, emotionally, logistically/procedurally/table-time-allocation) of playing and running a game like Dogs in the Vineyard is profoundly different than playing and running a game like Apocalypse World. That is despite the reality that (a) its the same designer for both and (b) these games are supposed to be DNA-deep kindred. When you move from one of those two to something like Torchbearer, the differences explode (despite sharing that (b) just mentioned).</p><p></p><p>The above is "where the play happens." That is the level of zoom we should be looking at when examining games, when examining how best to facilitate design that does the necessary work for "Neotraditional moment-stacking" (which yields Neotraditional play in the aggregate). If I want players to (a) bring a firm preconception of character into play, (b) have non-vetoable say over what character arc materializes through play (and that veto-nixing goes for the system same as GM), and (c) integrate that with Traditional systemization + Traditional GMing techniques and storytelling imperatives/responsibilities...then "those moments where the play happens" are paramount. You have to get those right. </p><p></p><p>More conversation about and more zoomed-in focus on those moments would be welcome.</p><p></p><p>Same goes for Trad play. Same goes for Story Now play. Same goes for Pawn Stance and every other form of Gamism. But this is a thread on Noetrad play, so one only brings in those alternative play (and system) paradigms in order to generate the bright lines of distinguishing characteristics.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 9245986, member: 6696971"] Although, we've had this conversation around this subject in the past (because I definitely have a large amount of misgivings and empirical disagreements about what I see as your tendency to smear the boundaries of extremely important distinctions while performing a very zoomed-out analysis), I should note that my post above wasn't to you. On the whole, while I still have disagreements around the edges, my opinion is that your efforts in this thread have been good...and I think its really, really, really garbage that some people have crapped on you in this thread. So consider this me standing up for you against the crap you were taking early in the thread and some that you've taken recently. /Leo Toast GIF. That said... Forget ludonarrative, forget ludonarrative dissonance, forget that the concept is imported from video game critique and, if it has any application for TTRPGs, it may only pertain to techniques and play dynamics inherent to Trad RPGing (where there necessarily features an outsized component of exposition, plot dump, bread-crumbing, plot-point-noding which are mechanically non-interactive). The blow-by-blow, moment-to-moment experience (cognitively, emotionally, logistically/procedurally/table-time-allocation) of playing and running a game like Dogs in the Vineyard is profoundly different than playing and running a game like Apocalypse World. That is despite the reality that (a) its the same designer for both and (b) these games are supposed to be DNA-deep kindred. When you move from one of those two to something like Torchbearer, the differences explode (despite sharing that (b) just mentioned). The above is "where the play happens." That is the level of zoom we should be looking at when examining games, when examining how best to facilitate design that does the necessary work for "Neotraditional moment-stacking" (which yields Neotraditional play in the aggregate). If I want players to (a) bring a firm preconception of character into play, (b) have non-vetoable say over what character arc materializes through play (and that veto-nixing goes for the system same as GM), and (c) integrate that with Traditional systemization + Traditional GMing techniques and storytelling imperatives/responsibilities...then "those moments where the play happens" are paramount. You have to get those right. More conversation about and more zoomed-in focus on those moments would be welcome. Same goes for Trad play. Same goes for Story Now play. Same goes for Pawn Stance and every other form of Gamism. But this is a thread on Noetrad play, so one only brings in those alternative play (and system) paradigms in order to generate the bright lines of distinguishing characteristics. [/QUOTE]
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