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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9247287" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>In the sense in which the ordinary English word "game" includes (Oxford Languages via Google) <em>an activity that one engages in for amusement or fun.</em> Like, Lucy's friend or mum asks here "What are you doing?" and she replies "We're playing a game". "What sort of game?" "A roleplaying game."</p><p></p><p>Matter to whom? I tend to sympathise with Vincent Baker when <a href="http://lumpley.com/index.php/anyway/thread/360" target="_blank">he says that</a></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">if all your formal rules do is structure your group's ongoing agreement about what happens in the game, they are a) interchangeable with any other rpg rules out there, and b) probably a waste of your attention. Live negotiation and honest collaboration are almost certainly better. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">live negotiation and honest collaboration are a) just as good as, and b) a lot more flexible and robust than, whatever formal rules you'd use otherwise.</p><p></p><p>Yet much RPGing, perhaps a majority of it, takes place using rules in (more-or-less) just this fashion! So presumably the rules matter to those RPGers despite Vincent's admonition.</p><p></p><p>And you can poke around ENworld, for example, and see examples of what people care about in relation to rules: they provide prompts to the GM; they help structure and constrain PC build, even if - <em>in play</em> - PC build often serves as a set of descriptors for the GM to be drawn on, rather than the sort of constraint on resolution that it is in (say) Torchbearer; and many people think that the rules matter a great deal <em>when the PCs are engaged in combat</em>.</p><p></p><p>I don't see that this basic orientation to rules, which was very common from the mid-80s, and was indeed cultivated by leading rulebooks (such as AD&D 2e and WW books) in the 1990s, is much rarer today. Edwards captured it <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/" target="_blank">by saying that</a>, in high concept sim RPGing,</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">At first glance, these games might look like additions to or specifications of the Purist for System design, mainly through plugging in a fixed Setting. However, I think that impression isn't accurate, and that the five elements are very differently related. The formula starts with one of Character, Situation, or Setting, with lots of Color, then the other two (Character, Situation, or Setting, whichever weren't in first place), with System being last in priority.</p><p></p><p>He also observes that</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"> "Story," in this context, refers to the sequence of events that provide a payoff in terms of recognizing and enjoying the genre during play. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">I also recommend examining Theme carefully. In this game, it's present and accounted for already, before play. The process of prep-play-enjoy works by putting "what you want" in, then having "what you want" come out, with the hope that the System's application doesn't change anything along the way.</p><p></p><p>Paradigms of this sort of RPGing are <a href="https://www.arkenstonepublishing.net/isabout/2020/05/14/observations-on-gns-simulationism/" target="_blank">what Eero Tuovinen calls "GM story hour" and "Substantial Exploration"</a>, respectively</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">a roleplaying game activity where one of the players – the titular GM – prepares a structured agenda platter for the session of play, and the play activity itself then concerns processing through this pre-prepared content. The content is usually structured analogously to a linear narrative, so there’s “scene 1”, “scene 2”, etc. that are processed through play in the order pre-determined by the GM. . . . [and] a type of game that involves a major external reference source. This is not just a big pile of GM notes; every player may or may not be familiar with the source material, but either way, exploring this material is core to the game’s creative purpose.</p><p></p><p>Whatever exact reason the rules matter for a particular group, in these approaches to RPGing it is not really to do with their potential function in relation to "finding out what happens" vis-a-vis whatever is "ludically crux". What is crucial to play is already known, at the outset, and as I've said play is about the players doing (imaginary) first person stuff (via their PCs) which will prompt the GM to engage in second-person revelations of the stuff to be enjoyed/explored/appreciated.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 9247287, member: 42582"] In the sense in which the ordinary English word "game" includes (Oxford Languages via Google) [I]an activity that one engages in for amusement or fun.[/I] Like, Lucy's friend or mum asks here "What are you doing?" and she replies "We're playing a game". "What sort of game?" "A roleplaying game." Matter to whom? I tend to sympathise with Vincent Baker when [url=http://lumpley.com/index.php/anyway/thread/360]he says that[/url] [indent]if all your formal rules do is structure your group's ongoing agreement about what happens in the game, they are a) interchangeable with any other rpg rules out there, and b) probably a waste of your attention. Live negotiation and honest collaboration are almost certainly better. . . . live negotiation and honest collaboration are a) just as good as, and b) a lot more flexible and robust than, whatever formal rules you'd use otherwise.[/indent] Yet much RPGing, perhaps a majority of it, takes place using rules in (more-or-less) just this fashion! So presumably the rules matter to those RPGers despite Vincent's admonition. And you can poke around ENworld, for example, and see examples of what people care about in relation to rules: they provide prompts to the GM; they help structure and constrain PC build, even if - [I]in play[/I] - PC build often serves as a set of descriptors for the GM to be drawn on, rather than the sort of constraint on resolution that it is in (say) Torchbearer; and many people think that the rules matter a great deal [I]when the PCs are engaged in combat[/I]. I don't see that this basic orientation to rules, which was very common from the mid-80s, and was indeed cultivated by leading rulebooks (such as AD&D 2e and WW books) in the 1990s, is much rarer today. Edwards captured it [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/]by saying that[/url], in high concept sim RPGing, [indent]At first glance, these games might look like additions to or specifications of the Purist for System design, mainly through plugging in a fixed Setting. However, I think that impression isn't accurate, and that the five elements are very differently related. The formula starts with one of Character, Situation, or Setting, with lots of Color, then the other two (Character, Situation, or Setting, whichever weren't in first place), with System being last in priority.[/indent] He also observes that [indent] "Story," in this context, refers to the sequence of events that provide a payoff in terms of recognizing and enjoying the genre during play. . . . I also recommend examining Theme carefully. In this game, it's present and accounted for already, before play. The process of prep-play-enjoy works by putting "what you want" in, then having "what you want" come out, with the hope that the System's application doesn't change anything along the way.[/indent] Paradigms of this sort of RPGing are [url=https://www.arkenstonepublishing.net/isabout/2020/05/14/observations-on-gns-simulationism/]what Eero Tuovinen calls "GM story hour" and "Substantial Exploration"[/url], respectively [indent]a roleplaying game activity where one of the players – the titular GM – prepares a structured agenda platter for the session of play, and the play activity itself then concerns processing through this pre-prepared content. The content is usually structured analogously to a linear narrative, so there’s “scene 1”, “scene 2”, etc. that are processed through play in the order pre-determined by the GM. . . . [and] a type of game that involves a major external reference source. This is not just a big pile of GM notes; every player may or may not be familiar with the source material, but either way, exploring this material is core to the game’s creative purpose.[/indent] Whatever exact reason the rules matter for a particular group, in these approaches to RPGing it is not really to do with their potential function in relation to "finding out what happens" vis-a-vis whatever is "ludically crux". What is crucial to play is already known, at the outset, and as I've said play is about the players doing (imaginary) first person stuff (via their PCs) which will prompt the GM to engage in second-person revelations of the stuff to be enjoyed/explored/appreciated. [/QUOTE]
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