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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 6681458" data-attributes="member: 59082">Aside from the fact that by "minimalist" I mainly meant the complexity of the core rules themselves, but also could extend to rules bloat, let's do some research.5E Products One Year In (July 2014 - June 2015): Starter set, core rules in three books ("Holy Trinity"), two story arcs in three books. That's seven print products (not including PDFs or the DM Screen).4E Products One Year In (May 2008 - April 2009): Keep on the Shadowfell, Holy Trinity, Forgotten Realms Campaign Book and player's Guide, Adventurer's Vault, Martial Power, Manual of the Planes, Demon Queen's Enclave, Open Grave, Player's Handbook 2, Dungeon Delve, Arcane Power, Death's Reach.So let's see, for 5E that's three core rule books, one starter set, and two story arcs in three books. For 4E that's the three core rule books, one story arc in three products, one campaign setting in two books, and seven splat books.Clearly they are world's apart in terms of rules, complexity, and product bloat.At is heart 5E is still d20 + modifier vs. target number, with various secondary and tertiary rules. But what is different is that the core of it is cleaner and less is intrinsically tied to it. For instance, feats, which was one of the "bloatiest" part of 4E. Or powers for non-magic characters. I just don't see how 5E is not a simpler game than 4E, or 3E for that matter.  One of the reasons that 5E is more inclusive than prior editions, in my opinion, is that the base level of play is far simpler - and thus it includes those who prefer a simpler rules set. But you can still add in complexities, whether through options from the DMG or house rules or, presumably, future products. But it does seem that WotC dropped he ball on the "complexity dial" they were talking about a couple years ago, namely the idea of being able to play different degrees of complexity at the same table - e.g. someone wanting a more bare-bones 5E-style character vs. someone wanting an optimized 3.5E style or a 4E-style AEDU character. It was a tall order, though.</blockquote>

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