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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6682757" data-attributes="member: 996">I can understand that.  5e is more like classic D&D, both in the style of the rules, and the presentation and general feel, and that familiarity, along with being comfortable with the role of the DM in both classic & 5e D&D, can give that impression.   Actually, character advancement, for instance, is much more complex in 5e than in 4e, which had a simple, uniform advancement scheme (classic D&D was even more complicated when it came to advancement).  4e's system was just new & different.  So, understandable, but, yes, I think we're talking about different things.  You're talking about your experience of the system, "how it plays at the table" for you, as you put it.  I'm talking about the system, itself, separate from what the players bring to it.   I agreed with it.  Yes, 5e has far less material out, at this point, than 3e or 4e or 2e did.  That doesn't make it a simpler system.  If you compare it to prior systems at a comparable point, with the same number of actual rule books out (just the core 3, still), 5e isn't any less complex than any of them.  I think we may actually agree on part of the point, though, which is that the slow pace of release is not all bad, and may even be good.  D&D has rarely been able to tolerate a lot of bloat without breaking down, so limiting actually 'crunch' or splatbooks, and releasing fewer books, more focused on adventures and settings, can give the system a longer shelf life, even if it's design is a little retro & baroque. You could also say that 5e at release is a more complex or complicated game than 4e at release, it'd be equally true.  The major difference among, complex, complicated, and complete in that context is one of connotation.  For instance, 3e & 4e one year in were both much more complete than 5e one year in.  But that's no more a meaningful comparison than saying they were more complex a year in.Or far less complete, if you want to make that comparison.  Also not so balanced as 4e, nor so system-mastery-rewarding as 3e.  Each modern version of D&D has had a very different design philosophy.  5e's is to do very little design after the initial release.  IMHO, that's a good call, because it will extend the life of the system by avoiding bloat.  It also means there'll just be less to it for a long time than there was to 3e or 4e.  And, it also means it's front-loaded and, yep, pretty complicated at release compared to those editions.  And it's relative to 3e: 5e Adv/Dis paired down the number of modifiers, so did 4e CA.  I can understand that.  5e is more like classic D&D, both in the style of the rules, and the presentation and general feel, and that familiarity, along with being comfortable with the role of the DM in both classic & 5e D&D, can give that impression.   Actually, character advancement, for instance, is much more complex in 5e than in 4e, which had a simple, uniform advancement scheme (classic D&D was even more complicated when it came to advancement).  4e's system was just new & different.  So, understandable, but, yes, I think we're talking about different things.  You're talking about your experience of the system, "how it plays at the table" for you, as you put it.  I'm talking about the system, itself, separate from what the players bring to it.   I agreed with it.  Yes, 5e has far less material out, at this point, than 3e or 4e or 2e did.  That doesn't make it a simpler system.  If you compare it to prior systems at a comparable point, with the same number of actual rule books out (just the core 3, still), 5e isn't any less complex than any of them.  I think we may actually agree on part of the point, though, which is that the slow pace of release is not all bad, and may even be good.  D&D has rarely been able to tolerate a lot of bloat without breaking down, so limiting actually 'crunch' or splatbooks, and releasing fewer books, more focused on adventures and settings, can give the system a longer shelf life, even if it's design is a little retro & baroque. You could also say that 5e at release is a more complex or complicated game than 4e at release, it'd be equally true.  The major difference among, complex, complicated, and complete in that context is one of connotation.  For instance, 3e & 4e one year in were both much more complete than 5e one year in.  But that's no more a meaningful comparison than saying they were more complex a year in.Or far less complete, if you want to make that comparison.  Also not so balanced as 4e, nor so system-mastery-rewarding as 3e.  Each modern version of D&D has had a very different design philosophy.  5e's is to do very little design after the initial release.  IMHO, that's a good call, because it will extend the life of the system by avoiding bloat.  It also means there'll just be less to it for a long time than there was to 3e or 4e.  And, it also means it's front-loaded and, yep, pretty complicated at release compared to those editions.</blockquote>

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