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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Alex319" data-source="post: 4751886" data-attributes="member: 45678">First of all, my original post wasn't even intending to classify anything as "not an RPG," or to propose a new definition of "roleplaying." All I was trying to do was to set up a framework for classification, to make these issues easier to talk about. I never intended to say that one way was better than another or that one way "wasn't roleplaying."But anyway, HowAndWhy, I'm still a little confused here...But on the other hand, later in the thread...It seems here like you ARE saying that "the players don't know the rules at the outset" is a key element of "roleplaying" under your definition, because you're saying that if the rule is on the DM's screen, it counts as "roleplaying", but if it's on the PC's screen, then it isn't.Also, here's another thing. You state that having the operation of the rule be "learned through play" is an important aspect of roleplaying. Is the only way to "learn it through play" through trial and error, or are other methods possible? In that example, suppose that before the battle, the PCs were back at home training, and their instructor told them that "these are the things that can help you defend yourself, and these are which ones are more effective" and gave the PCs the "modifiers to AC" list. Any problem with that?And if you're going to say that the instructor wouldn't have a list with quantitative data (like "X gives +1, Y gives +2") etc., consider the following hypothetical. Suppose that it was a sci-fi game, and the players were officers on a starship, and before their mission they were given a document with the technical specifications of their ship. This would include lots of quantitative data ("Weapon X is N% more powerful than Weapon Y but consumes M% more energy per shot") and of course this data would correspond to the game rule stats of the weapons (if it didn't, the data wouldn't be accurate). Would this break the "roleplaying"?(To go back to your "telephone repairperson" example: The examiner asks the person how to repair a phone with a particular problem, and even though he had never repaired a phone with that particular problem before, he knows the answer because he read it in a telephone repair manual.)And anyway, earlier in the thread you say:So you're saying anything that involves "DM fiat" isn't roleplaying. But if a player describes an action that isn't in the rules (which will happen a lot if players don't know what the rules are, as you seem to advocate) then what other way is there to resolve it other than "DM fiat"? Or is the only way a game can qualify as a "roleplaying game" under your definition if the rules cover every action that a player could conceivably describe?And finally...So you're saying that a game can still be an RPG even if certain elements of that game are not roleplaying. So suppose that you play 4e as normal, but during out-of-combat scenarios, you have players describe what actions they want to do, then have the DM decide what skill checks are necessary, roll the dice behind the screen, and tell the players if they succeed or not. So in that case, 4e as a whole would still count as an "RPG" even though the combat aspect is still "not roleplaying" according to your definition. Correct?</blockquote>

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