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<blockquote data-quote="Galloglaich" data-source="post: 4754145" data-attributes="member: 77019">I think the sharp difference between the kind of gameplay &quot;people in general&quot; take to relativley easily vs. the kind of 'numbers crunching' (and I don't think it's just numbers) that some hardcore gamers prefer is due to the sharp disconnect between the game design and basic logic. If the mechanics match the expectations of &quot;people in general&quot; on an intuitive level, in it's rythem, if you will, then the game has a natural feel whatever level of abstraction it's at, complex or very simple... and getting deep into it won't require entering such a strange world of weird math and bizarre rationalizations working around inconsistencies.&nbsp;For some gamers, the very wierdness or disconnect of a badly designed game system can be what they find comforting about it, I think because it becomes &quot;their world&quot;. Much the way some people grow very fond of the idosyncracies of say, old Star Treke episodes. I call this the &quot;Klingoninzation&quot; of the game. Taken in context I don't see anything wrong with this, (these can be a fun niche game) but it has literally become the mainstream of gaming, and you shouldn't need to understand Klingon to play IMO.&nbsp; Because frankly I think 'their world' is pretty limited and does seem to alienate a lot of &quot;people in general&quot; as well as some hard core gamers (like myself) who would like to play a game which had a little more natural and intuitive feel to it, with more of an open ended link with History or Mythology.&nbsp;&nbsp; The older versions of the game while largely broken systems, were open enough that you could still play that way, now it's gotten much harder.&nbsp;To me &quot;real&quot; mythological elements like say Norse Trolls or Native American Wendigo are far more deeply interesting than Teiflings or Dragonlance type Dragonborn.&nbsp;Although I give credit where it's due to the DnD designers (Gygax?) for making up Drow which have become a pretty well fleshed-out and interesting modern mythological monster (if largely based on the Norse Svartalf) maybe they can make up a new grown up version of these new ideas. That can always be done. But it's bloody hard to pull off even halfway well, most of what I see coming out of say Anime etc. really isn't &quot;grown up&quot; fare.&nbsp;G.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Galloglaich, post: 4754145, member: 77019"] I think the sharp difference between the kind of gameplay "people in general" take to relativley easily vs. the kind of 'numbers crunching' (and I don't think it's just numbers) that some hardcore gamers prefer is due to the sharp disconnect between the game design and basic logic. If the mechanics match the expectations of "people in general" on an intuitive level, in it's rythem, if you will, then the game has a natural feel whatever level of abstraction it's at, complex or very simple... and getting deep into it won't require entering such a strange world of weird math and bizarre rationalizations working around inconsistencies. For some gamers, the very wierdness or disconnect of a badly designed game system can be what they find comforting about it, I think because it becomes "their world". Much the way some people grow very fond of the idosyncracies of say, old Star Treke episodes. I call this the "Klingoninzation" of the game. Taken in context I don't see anything wrong with this, (these can be a fun niche game) but it has literally become the [I]mainstream[/I] of gaming, and you shouldn't need to understand Klingon to play IMO. Because frankly I think 'their world' is pretty limited and does seem to alienate a lot of "people in general" as well as some hard core gamers (like myself) who would like to play a game which had a little more natural and intuitive feel to it, with more of an open ended link with History or Mythology. The older versions of the game while largely broken systems, were open enough that you could still play that way, now it's gotten much harder. To me "real" mythological elements like say Norse Trolls or Native American Wendigo are far more deeply interesting than Teiflings or Dragonlance type Dragonborn. Although I give credit where it's due to the DnD designers (Gygax?) for making up Drow which have become a pretty well fleshed-out and interesting modern mythological monster (if largely based on the Norse Svartalf) maybe they can make up a new grown up version of these new ideas. That [I]can[/I] always be done. But it's bloody hard to pull off even halfway well, most of what I see coming out of say Anime etc. really isn't "grown up" fare. G. [/QUOTE]

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