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A New Taxonomy for TSR-Era D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 8346795" data-attributes="member: 7023840"><p>Just stop. You are using a singly similarity despite the manifest differences. This is the worst type of post.</p><p></p><p>Moldvay is "race as class."</p><p></p><p>Holmes (and OD&D) is not race as class.</p><p></p><p>Holmes does include specific rules about halflings as fighting men- they get d6 (instead of d8) hit points, and they can't use "regular" human sized weapons and armor. The reason for this (and the elf rules as well) is because Holmes was creating a compendium and simplification of the OD&D rules.</p><p></p><p>Importantly, these rules were considered a bridge between OD&D and AD&D - this is why Holmes had inserts put into that specifically say that rules for advancing beyond 3rd level are to be found in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons; that was the entire point of the split nomenclature. It also had the more advanced proto-AD&D system (the seven-point system).</p><p></p><p>Then there are the contemporaneous references:</p><p>"Organizational work was in progress when correspondence with J. Eric Holmes, professor, author and incidentally a respected neurologist, disclosed that the Good Doctor was interested in undertaking the first stage of the project — the rewriting and editing necessary to extract a beginner’s set of D&D from the basic set and its supplements. The result of his labors is the “Basic Set” of D&D." -Gygax, May 1978 (written earlier)</p><p></p><p>"As we realized that “Original” D&D (the first three booklets and the supplements) wasn’t anywhere near adequate for the needs of the readership it was attracting, it was decided that a simplified, clarified, introductory piece was needed. Shortly after this was decided, as if by divine inspiration, J. Eric Holmes got in touch with us and actually volunteered his services for just such an undertaking. All of you know the result, of course.”</p><p></p><p>"By the time the final manuscript from Eric was in our hands, the rough of the Monster Manual was also finished, rough outlines of Players Handbook and Dungeon Masters Guide were typed up, and several portions of both works were likewise in manuscript form. We had two choices to consider with the new Basic Set: As it took players only through three experience levels, they could thereafter be directed to the “original” works, or we could refer them to AD&D ... Faced with a choice between chaos and a clean slate, we opted for the latter.</p><p></p><p>"Pieces and parts of the various components of AD&D were grafted into the Basic Set rules manuscript so that D&D would be more compatible with the Advanced game. Readers were directed to AD&D throughout the Basic Set ... our production people had no idea then just how well it would all work out in the end, because much of the AD&D system was still on rough notes or in my head at the time. It turned out to be relatively acceptable as an interim measure, too." Gygax, March 1980 (written earlier)</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's pretty simple- Holmes Basic is OD&D. More specifically, I will quote [USER=42368]@zenopus[/USER] (probably one of the best people to ask about Holmes Basic) who said this on a different forum:</p><p><em>Personally I love the simplicity of the Original D&D rules for running games, and consider Holmes Basic to be his take on OD&D.</em></p><p></p><p>So if you agree with what is the most uncontroversial point of all time, that Holmes Basic is a reiteration of OD&D, then you have to ask yourself-</p><p>Is AD&D, which is essentially an expansion of OD&D by including the many supplements and rules that Gygax had come up with, the inheritor of the OD&D line, or is Moldvay Basic (and BECMI, RC).</p><p></p><p>Given that AD&D and the AD&D PHB (and the other books, Deities and Demigods, the DMG, etc.) explicitly include the materials from the supplements (!!!!) and the Dragon Magazine articles, while Moldvay is a simplified and re-imagined system (which is excellent, but different than where OD&D ended up going), then it's pretty obvious that AD&D, from race-as-class to everything else is the OD&D line.</p><p></p><p>But whatever, man. If it's super important for you to reiterate your points, why don't you create your own thread where you can say, yet again, that Holmes's halfling fighters only had d6 hit points? Thanks!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Snarf Zagyg, post: 8346795, member: 7023840"] Just stop. You are using a singly similarity despite the manifest differences. This is the worst type of post. Moldvay is "race as class." Holmes (and OD&D) is not race as class. Holmes does include specific rules about halflings as fighting men- they get d6 (instead of d8) hit points, and they can't use "regular" human sized weapons and armor. The reason for this (and the elf rules as well) is because Holmes was creating a compendium and simplification of the OD&D rules. Importantly, these rules were considered a bridge between OD&D and AD&D - this is why Holmes had inserts put into that specifically say that rules for advancing beyond 3rd level are to be found in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons; that was the entire point of the split nomenclature. It also had the more advanced proto-AD&D system (the seven-point system). Then there are the contemporaneous references: "Organizational work was in progress when correspondence with J. Eric Holmes, professor, author and incidentally a respected neurologist, disclosed that the Good Doctor was interested in undertaking the first stage of the project — the rewriting and editing necessary to extract a beginner’s set of D&D from the basic set and its supplements. The result of his labors is the “Basic Set” of D&D." -Gygax, May 1978 (written earlier) "As we realized that “Original” D&D (the first three booklets and the supplements) wasn’t anywhere near adequate for the needs of the readership it was attracting, it was decided that a simplified, clarified, introductory piece was needed. Shortly after this was decided, as if by divine inspiration, J. Eric Holmes got in touch with us and actually volunteered his services for just such an undertaking. All of you know the result, of course.” "By the time the final manuscript from Eric was in our hands, the rough of the Monster Manual was also finished, rough outlines of Players Handbook and Dungeon Masters Guide were typed up, and several portions of both works were likewise in manuscript form. We had two choices to consider with the new Basic Set: As it took players only through three experience levels, they could thereafter be directed to the “original” works, or we could refer them to AD&D ... Faced with a choice between chaos and a clean slate, we opted for the latter. "Pieces and parts of the various components of AD&D were grafted into the Basic Set rules manuscript so that D&D would be more compatible with the Advanced game. Readers were directed to AD&D throughout the Basic Set ... our production people had no idea then just how well it would all work out in the end, because much of the AD&D system was still on rough notes or in my head at the time. It turned out to be relatively acceptable as an interim measure, too." Gygax, March 1980 (written earlier) It's pretty simple- Holmes Basic is OD&D. More specifically, I will quote [USER=42368]@zenopus[/USER] (probably one of the best people to ask about Holmes Basic) who said this on a different forum: [I]Personally I love the simplicity of the Original D&D rules for running games, and consider Holmes Basic to be his take on OD&D.[/I] So if you agree with what is the most uncontroversial point of all time, that Holmes Basic is a reiteration of OD&D, then you have to ask yourself- Is AD&D, which is essentially an expansion of OD&D by including the many supplements and rules that Gygax had come up with, the inheritor of the OD&D line, or is Moldvay Basic (and BECMI, RC). Given that AD&D and the AD&D PHB (and the other books, Deities and Demigods, the DMG, etc.) explicitly include the materials from the supplements (!!!!) and the Dragon Magazine articles, while Moldvay is a simplified and re-imagined system (which is excellent, but different than where OD&D ended up going), then it's pretty obvious that AD&D, from race-as-class to everything else is the OD&D line. But whatever, man. If it's super important for you to reiterate your points, why don't you create your own thread where you can say, yet again, that Holmes's halfling fighters only had d6 hit points? Thanks! [/QUOTE]
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