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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7228468" data-attributes="member: 6778044">Oops, I did. As I was working on it, it occurred to me that both could apply, but without stacking them. In general, the idea is that proficiency is proficiency. But maintaining the option for the ability modifier seems to be a good compromise, particularly in light of the way all of this will interact with the other rules.For monsters, it's easy to say that most of them just have expertise in their natural attacks, and thus add both. Even for something like orcs I'm more or less OK with this, as they are a warlike race that live a life of strife, so that works too. Not sure which monsters I'd consider changing.But that would mean that with no proficiency, you'd be at a +0. In general I'm OK with that in concept, but it does weaken the PCs quite a bit, I think. I also want to find a better "balance" that doesn't completely eliminate the benefit of good abilities scores, so I'm kind of on the fence.With the standard array, at 1st level there will be only one stat that gives you a better than +2 bonus. And that happens to be your Prime Requisite for the majority of characters. Even when rolling characters, that will be the highest as well. A second ability, has the +2 bonus. Two have a +1.So the question is, if you have two untrained people, would somebody with natural talent be better? I think that's a reasonable Yes. The next question is, could somebody with natural talent be as good or better than somebody with proficiency? I'd say maybe. We could set a limit - without proficiency the highest modifier you can have is a +1. That's something that appeals to me, because I'd kind of like to scale back the bonuses a bit. But it adds complexity that really doesn't have a lot of impact.I've noted in other threads that a +1 or +2 isn't as significant bonus in 5e as in the past, so I'm OK with the idea that your primary ability could be 1 point better than proficiency (potentially 2 at the level you gain an ASI, but then proficiency gains a point the next level). As I've been fleshing out the concept, the idea that non-proficient - proficient - expert sets up a consistent tiered mechanic that I really like. Thinking about it, I also like the maximum +1 for non-proficient abilities.Do not look at the man behind the curtain!  Some (many?) games have already put combat where it belongs: in the skills list.</blockquote>Yep.[/QUOTE]

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