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<blockquote data-quote="GMMichael" data-source="post: 7230602" data-attributes="member: 6685730">I'd break it down to this.&nbsp; Who wins:Two untrained contestants?&nbsp; The side with (more) natural talent.One side with proficiency?&nbsp;&nbsp; The side with proficiency.Two proficient contestants?&nbsp; The side with (more) natural talent.So I'd say that the ability score bonuses are important as long as you match your opponent's training.Note that those are Winner-Take-All results.&nbsp; In D&amp;D anyway, you tend to see WTA results in non-combat checks; the DM asks for one roll and declares &quot;succeed&quot; or &quot;fail.&quot;&nbsp; A contest like this should only occur if the two contestants are very similar in ability (not Ability), because the d20 is very swingy.With combat checks, though, it often takes lots of rolls to succeed.&nbsp; So an extra +2 from Strength makes a much bigger difference over time than in WTA checks.&nbsp; The above proficiency results are less clear in combat, because one lucky sling bullet can become a critical hit, so even if a contestant has proficiency and natural talent, he can still lose with unlucky rolls.Secondary point: consider combat and non-combat cases separately in your schema to rewrite how bonuses are used.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="GMMichael, post: 7230602, member: 6685730"] I'd break it down to this. Who wins: Two untrained contestants? The side with (more) natural talent. One side with proficiency? The side with proficiency. Two proficient contestants? The side with (more) natural talent. So I'd say that the ability score bonuses are important as long as you match your opponent's training. Note that those are Winner-Take-All results. In D&D anyway, you tend to see WTA results in non-combat checks; the DM asks for one roll and declares "succeed" or "fail." A contest like this should only occur if the two contestants are very similar in ability (not Ability), because the d20 is very swingy. With combat checks, though, it often takes lots of rolls to succeed. So an extra +2 from Strength makes a much bigger difference over time than in WTA checks. The above proficiency results are less clear in combat, because one lucky sling bullet can become a critical hit, so even if a contestant has proficiency and natural talent, he can still lose with unlucky rolls. Secondary point: consider combat and non-combat cases separately in your schema to rewrite how bonuses are used. [/QUOTE]

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