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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 5732837" data-attributes="member: 7006">There have been numerous threads here for quite a while about the difficulties and solutions for D&D's starter set / Red Box problem and its Epic Tier problem.  Neither end of the game's spectrum has been taken care of as well as its proponents think they should be.  The starter sets have not done enough to create an instant entryway into the game that is actually replayable (and not just a fire and forget game that expect you to move on immediately to the 'real' version), and the Epic Tier has not had nearly enough support and true variation and innovation to make it seem a viable addition to the game, plus I've heard it said from some who've played it that the entire Tier might be just a bit too long for what it wants to accomplish.Whether any of this is true or not is obviously up for debate (and goodness knows we've been having those debates for years now.)  But I decided to create my own possible solution for this situation and offer it up here, mainly curious just to hear other people's opinions on the matter.  I'm taking certain things that have already happened into account, as well as using/adapting ideas that have already been mentioned in various Mearls/Cook/Rule of 3 columns (as they might be indicative of directions they seem to be going.)Bear in mind I do not deign to believe in any way that this is the best solution... it's just one I've come up with and I'm wondering how people like it.  (Also bear in mind that its quite possible that its similar to other ideas that have been offered up before and I make no claim that this is at all original or that I wasn't influenced by threads of this type in the past.  I probably easily was.)***So here's what I'm looking to accomplish: a new Tier system that helps solve the issues of a replayable starter game, a more concrete and important high-level game, as well as bring in the changeable complexity module system that seems to be the direction the game is leaning towards.For my purposes, the 3 tiers are as follows:Adventurer Tier: 1-5Heroic Tier: 6-15Epic Tier: 16-20The game itself would be packaged in two different ways.The first way recreates the old B-E-C-M-I formula by making three separate 'boxed sets' of the three tiers-- the Adventurer Tier boxed set, the Heroic Tier boxed set, and the Epic Tier boxed set.  Each of these tier boxes are complete versions of the game for that particular tier.  There's one booklet for Players which cover character generation, a second for DMs covering the rules and how to run the game, and a third covering monsters.  Everything you need to run a game at that tier is at your disposal, with each tier as you went higher including more complex rules and more complex systems so as to make the higher tiers actually somewhat different than the ones below it.So for instance... the Adventurer Tier boxed set is your Starter Set, and is identified as such.  The box is set up and written for new players to allow them to create characters and run them through 5 levels worth of adventures.  All the extras that the PF Starter Set has could be included (character/monster tokens, reusable gridded poster map, character sheets).  The game rules would include everything at the foundation of whatever the game's mechanics are.  Maybe Skills are included in Adventurer Tier or maybe not; maybe Feats are or are not included in Adventurer Tier.  And for character generation, maybe you go with the four standard base classes (F/C/R/W)... or maybe instead you don't select a 'class', but instead select one of six roles (melee defender, ranged controller, melee or ranged striker, melee or ranged leader), and a power source (Martial, Divine, Arcane) in addition to selecting a race and background. This way you can have somewhat standardized Adventurer Tier powers across the same role and/or across the same power source (which many people have said they were in favor of in order to cut down on power bloat).  You adventure in this way for five levels of game.  And this then leads you to... ...the Heroic Tier boxed set, where these role/power source combinations can get codified.  What would in 4E be called your Paragon Path, here at 6th level in Heroic Tier you select a Class based upon the role/power source combination you chose in Adventurer.  Selecting a Class gives you Class Features (which you wouldn't ordinarily have in Adventurer Tier.) over and above the additional powers you would acquire as you level.  So for instance, if you had selected melee striker / martial source... you could select the Rogue class and get the abilities and features for being a rogue (or in future supplements, perhaps the Slayer class or the Duelist class becomes available).  In any event... you went through 5 levels as a basic Adventurer to now allow you to select and advance through 10 levels of a Heroic Class.  And then once you get through level 15......you move onto the Epic Tier boxed set.  5 final levels of following your Epic Destiny towards whatever awaits you.  This tier box would include even more advanced mechanics for character advancement, monster advancement, epic equipment, and the like.  Really make these five levels as advanced over the Heroic tier and Adventurer tier as possible to really make it stand out.  And by only doing five levels, DMs can really focus their PCs stories through the accomplishing of their Destinies until the retire at level 20.And the second way the game is packaged?  Rather than dividing info up into 3 Tiers... you do the standard division of 3 separate books that include all 3 tiers in them.  So your Player's Handbook covers character generation and advancement from levels 1-20, your Dungeon Master's Guide covers all the rules and complexity modules from 1-20, and your Monster Manual covers all the monsters from 1-20.  What this does is that it allows more experienced gamers who fully expect to play all 3 tiers to buy all the info they need in a single book (or three books, in the case of a DM).  But because the info in the three hardcover book is exactly the same as the info in the three tiered boxed sets (and god willing, costs the same to buy all three hardcover books as it is to buy the three boxed sets)... you don't have to make players buy the same information more than once.You get to choose... you can either buy the information by Tier and get that tier's PC, DM, and monster info all together in one place, or you buy the info by book and get the entire 1-20 levels of info for your job together.***This was long and kind of convoluted I know... and I'm sure certain parts don't work as well as other parts do... but it would certainly solve some problems that the game has had.  What do you think?</blockquote>

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