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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Felix" data-source="post: 2897472" data-attributes="member: 3929">And while I'm bloviating, I might as well opine on the "I subdue, they kill" method.If an individual's code doesn't allow them to kill, it can mean one of two things. Firstly, that they won't allow an enemy to die; secondly, that they themselves won't physically kill another.In the first case, you can very much take the moral stance that "killing is wrong", because not only do you disallow your own commitment of it, but you similarly disallow anyone associated with you to do so. That way, you ensure that your actions of subduing enemies don't simply make killing easier for others. This is consistent, because if "Death Is Wrong", then not only is it wrong for you, but also it is wrong for others.In the second case moral ground cannot be guaranteed; just like mob bosses order hits and don't pull the trigger, someone who subdued but allowed (or even encouraged because of his unwillingness) others to kill would be as integral to the death of the victim as he who Coup de Grace'd. Here the argument is inconsistent: it is wrong for me to kill, but it is ok for you to kill, and moreover, it is ok for me to help you kill. By subduing someone, you remove their ability to fight for survival; you render them impotent. It is tanamount to killing them in many cases.---Regarding the effacasy of these two dogmas:The first is awkward within your usual group of DnD PCs. Not only on a metagame basis because many characters are geared towards killing with maximum efficiency, but also because of the game world; if there is a moral absolute (Good and Evil exist), then killing Evil in the commitment of Evil is arguably virtuous. So trying to prevent other PCs from doing what they are deisgned to do, and what is demonstrably Good for them to do, is awkward. In the second case, the hypocracy stands out. The PC claims moral high ground by surrounding himself with others who do not have that high ground. Essentially, his morality is upheld by others' immorality. I can see this working very will for a villian who wants to be able to say truthfully, "I have never killed anyone", but I have a very hard time conceptualizing a PC who does this because he believes "Killing is wrong".---Extenuating circumstances of course may apply. A PC who is a Bhaalspawn and who cannot kill because doing so would cause him to transform into an avatar of the Lord of Murder... then OK. Subdue away and allow others to kill. As long as the PC does not espouse the idea that "killing is always and everywhere wrong" I can see the no-killing PC existing. The beguiler for instance. Hardly any lethal capacity, but very effective at removing enemies./bloviating</blockquote>

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