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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
A practical guide to Stealth
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<blockquote data-quote="Starfox" data-source="post: 6210576" data-attributes="member: 2303"><p>Have read those two threads now, at least cursorily.</p><p></p><p>I saw very little useful in the first thread (Stealth errata) except Jason Bulman's comments. </p><p></p><p>The second thread was much more concrete, largely because your questions at the beginning gave things there structure. Agree that Nearyn and Shadowlord had much sensible to say. Still, I it only peripherally discussed the questions I find most open.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My own thoughts and question:</p><p></p><p>The absolutely most unclear part of the stealth rules is "Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth.", with most people seeming to read this so that you need both c/c AND distraction. That is the main thing I feel a source would be needed for, and was barely discussed in the thread. Additionally, distraction is not defined - Bluff is mentioned as one possibility, but it is otherwise left open. Is a barbarian swiping a greatsword at you a distraction? That would seem natural, but without further text we cannot say.</p><p></p><p>This end up in two completely different readings for me, both with about as much support in the rules.</p><p></p><p>A) You need to both be in c/c and have a distraction to use Stealth.</p><p>B) You need to either have a distraction or be in c/c to use Stealth.</p><p></p><p>"Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you." is also problematic - what does it mean to be "aware". And how does that interact with the first problematic quote above? Is this the text people use to motivate the BOTH in reading A above, and if so, how?There seems to be a consensus that it should be extra hard to use Stealth after attacking in a round, or that using stealth for archery is especially bad. I don't feel that is covered in the rules or the errata. Regarding how you read "Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement" you could stealth after each attack (no action reading) or between attacks as a 5 ft step (part of movement reading). Other than breaking your current stealth, attacking does not seem to have any particular effect on what happens later in the round. Nor is there anything that prevents you from using stealth to hide several times in a round.</p><p></p><p>Those threads you brought up also spoke a lot about total cover (lack of line of sight), but I don't see any references at all to that in the Stealth rules. The only possibility being readings of "aware" and "observed".</p><p></p><p>Finally, my reading of "Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you" is that, if there is nobody around when you use Stealth, you automatically succeed. There is no mention of what happens on their turn - this is all about the stealther's turn in my reading. On their turn, they can take move actions to try to find hidden things, but that it their action. The question hereis if someone who is hiding but not acting is an "observable stimulus" as described in the Perception skill. </p><p></p><p>Once enemies are on the scene, do you need to make new Stealth rolls as long as you don't take any actions? I can't really see that you have, by RAW. Stealth is not an action, so you are not making a Stealth action on later turn, and thus not making any Stealth rolls unless you move or attack. I think that if you move, you have to use Stealth per "Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement", but not if you remain still. The errata covers a special situation - moving from cover to cover - and doesn't apply if you remain in place.</p><p></p><p>I can see how the sniping stunts support a more strict reading of Stealth - it becomes pretty pointless with my reading as someone remaining in cover could just hide again without any special rules. You'll notice that in my house rule version of this, I assumed a successful sniping meant you were never spotted - that your location remains unknown.</p><p></p><p>I will try and pin this down into concrete questions. The first question is by far the most important. I will also give my answer to each in italics.</p><p></p><p>1: Which reading is correct, and what is the background of this reading?</p><p>A) You need to both be in c/c and have a distraction to use Stealth.</p><p>B) You need to either have a distraction or be in c/c to use Stealth.</p><p><em>B, simply because I can't find any support for A.</em></p><p></p><p>2: What is the effect, if any, of having total cover?</p><p><em>None. Possibly, you could be assumed to be invisible and get +20 to Stealth (after all, improved cover does give +10, see cover)</em></p><p></p><p>3: When can you attempt to use Stealth - anytime (no action) or as a part of movement?</p><p><em>As a part of movement, including a 5 ft. step. Sniping is an exception to this, and is a move action.</em></p><p></p><p>4: When are you forced to use Stealth? Each round, or as a part of movement?</p><p><em>As a part of movement. Doing something that draws attention, such as attacking or casing a spell with verbal components automatically breaks Stealth.</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Starfox, post: 6210576, member: 2303"] Have read those two threads now, at least cursorily. I saw very little useful in the first thread (Stealth errata) except Jason Bulman's comments. The second thread was much more concrete, largely because your questions at the beginning gave things there structure. Agree that Nearyn and Shadowlord had much sensible to say. Still, I it only peripherally discussed the questions I find most open. My own thoughts and question: The absolutely most unclear part of the stealth rules is "Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth.", with most people seeming to read this so that you need both c/c AND distraction. That is the main thing I feel a source would be needed for, and was barely discussed in the thread. Additionally, distraction is not defined - Bluff is mentioned as one possibility, but it is otherwise left open. Is a barbarian swiping a greatsword at you a distraction? That would seem natural, but without further text we cannot say. This end up in two completely different readings for me, both with about as much support in the rules. A) You need to both be in c/c and have a distraction to use Stealth. B) You need to either have a distraction or be in c/c to use Stealth. "Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you." is also problematic - what does it mean to be "aware". And how does that interact with the first problematic quote above? Is this the text people use to motivate the BOTH in reading A above, and if so, how?There seems to be a consensus that it should be extra hard to use Stealth after attacking in a round, or that using stealth for archery is especially bad. I don't feel that is covered in the rules or the errata. Regarding how you read "Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement" you could stealth after each attack (no action reading) or between attacks as a 5 ft step (part of movement reading). Other than breaking your current stealth, attacking does not seem to have any particular effect on what happens later in the round. Nor is there anything that prevents you from using stealth to hide several times in a round. Those threads you brought up also spoke a lot about total cover (lack of line of sight), but I don't see any references at all to that in the Stealth rules. The only possibility being readings of "aware" and "observed". Finally, my reading of "Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you" is that, if there is nobody around when you use Stealth, you automatically succeed. There is no mention of what happens on their turn - this is all about the stealther's turn in my reading. On their turn, they can take move actions to try to find hidden things, but that it their action. The question hereis if someone who is hiding but not acting is an "observable stimulus" as described in the Perception skill. Once enemies are on the scene, do you need to make new Stealth rolls as long as you don't take any actions? I can't really see that you have, by RAW. Stealth is not an action, so you are not making a Stealth action on later turn, and thus not making any Stealth rolls unless you move or attack. I think that if you move, you have to use Stealth per "Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement", but not if you remain still. The errata covers a special situation - moving from cover to cover - and doesn't apply if you remain in place. I can see how the sniping stunts support a more strict reading of Stealth - it becomes pretty pointless with my reading as someone remaining in cover could just hide again without any special rules. You'll notice that in my house rule version of this, I assumed a successful sniping meant you were never spotted - that your location remains unknown. I will try and pin this down into concrete questions. The first question is by far the most important. I will also give my answer to each in italics. 1: Which reading is correct, and what is the background of this reading? A) You need to both be in c/c and have a distraction to use Stealth. B) You need to either have a distraction or be in c/c to use Stealth. [i]B, simply because I can't find any support for A.[/i] 2: What is the effect, if any, of having total cover? [i]None. Possibly, you could be assumed to be invisible and get +20 to Stealth (after all, improved cover does give +10, see cover)[/i] 3: When can you attempt to use Stealth - anytime (no action) or as a part of movement? [i]As a part of movement, including a 5 ft. step. Sniping is an exception to this, and is a move action.[/i] 4: When are you forced to use Stealth? Each round, or as a part of movement? [i]As a part of movement. Doing something that draws attention, such as attacking or casing a spell with verbal components automatically breaks Stealth.[/I] [/QUOTE]
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