Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ainamacar" data-source="post: 5842386" data-attributes="member: 70709">Thanks.  There are obviously some pretty big differences between it and  Skill Challenges, the most important of which is that Skill Challenges  track both successes and failures.  I think it's inevitable in the future that any success-based stuff in D&D will be compared to Skill Challenges.  The idea does have a long history in D&D though, for example from 3.5's <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/complexSkillChecks.htm" target="_blank">complex skill checks</a>.Well, that's a problem... <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/blush.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":blush:" title="Blush    :blush:" data-shortname=":blush:" />  I may revise the first post if I can present the basic idea more clearly.  Let me give it another shot.The fundamental goals are as follows:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Allow every character to meaningfully attempt almost any skill check.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Allow highly-trained characters to achieve exceptional results.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Allow under-trained characters to sometimes achieve exceptional results, but only with a large effort and diminished probability of success compared to someone with proper training.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Make training more important than a high ability score for achieving exceptional results, while still making a high ability score very nice.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Do all the above while keeping almost every check in the game a single d20 roll.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Do all the above while avoiding auto-successes, auto-failures, and similar blemishes.</li> </ul>The proposed means to achieving these goals can be summarized:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The numerical bonus to skill checks fall within the same moderate range for all levels of play.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">All checks use moderate DCs appropriate for that range.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Multiple successes (at the same DC) are the defining characteristic of exceptional results.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An exceptional result automatically includes or expands upon less exceptional results.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Almost all checks have some result for a single success.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Conversely, there is no expectation that every check has exceptional results.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Appropriate training means an exceptional result requires only one success.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Highly-trained characters gain bonus dice on easy checks, which increase their base probability of success.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Highly-trained characters can use Skill Tricks to spend "extra" successes on effects that simulate an exceptional success, even when none has been predefined.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Characters can cooperate or spend extra time to gain extra dice, which is what allows under-trained characters to do some exceptional things.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Exceptional training is not baked into character advancement, it is a potent benefit which is taken using limited character resources.</li> </ul>I bolded the two above because I think they are the conceptual and mathematical lynchpins of the system.  In particular, exceptional training doesn't change the numerical result of a single d20 roll in any way, it changes what that roll can achieve.Perhaps I ought also to have included a wider variety of examples in the first post.  Here is a simpler example I think might be more typical.[SBLOCK]A fighter separated from the party by happenstance comes across an old stone bridge that is broken and obstructed in the middle in such a way that a small acrobatic stunt seems the most expedient way to get from one side to the other.The DM thinks that anyone could reasonably try and succeed at this stunt, and he figures it either succeeds or does not.  He declares it an Acrobatics check (Untrained, DC 13).The fighter is not trained in Acrobatics, but has a reasonable Dex score and succeeds on the check.Later on he meets up with the rest of the party (rogue, wizard, cleric) and they decide to backtrack along the fighter's path, coming to the same bridge again.The rogue is an Expert in acrobatics, a former professional in fact, and would like to aid the others in getting across safely.  The DM thinks a guiding hand is reasonable for this stunt given the rogue's background, and allows the rogue to roll an additional d20 on each of their checks.  The DM rules, however, that the rogue must use the other character's bonus rather than his own on the extra die because he isn't actually performing an acrobatic maneuver as such.The wizard passes safely, although the rogue was no help at all.  (Due to the wizard's pigheadedness, he sniffs.)  The fighter also passes, both rolls narrowly succeeding.  Finally, the cleric (8 Dex) misses his roll badly and is quite relieved by the rogue's natural 20.Finally the rogue crosses.  He has a +8 in Acrobatics, and as an Expert can always roll 2d20 on such an easy task.  Both checks succeed, and with his extra success he adds a showy flourish to the whole thing using a Skill Trick he picked up in his days as a performer.  In the past that trick would have earned him a few more coppers, but these days it just earns him a roll of the eyes.[/SBLOCK]We can see in this case that if no Expert were present that the system operates just like 3e or 4e.  The expert's presence in this case resulted in rolling a few more d20s, but I don't think it particularly increased the burden on the DM or other players in the scene.  In particular, the DM did not need to think through multiple levels of success or anything to set up the check.  If he had wanted to give the rogue or fighter something extra for their two successes he could have, but there wasn't really any reason to do so.  In part that is what Skill Tricks are for: giving the player something to do with those successes and freeing the DM to not think or be pestered about it.Thanks again for your thoughts.</blockquote>

Verification