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A question about armor and vehicles
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<blockquote data-quote="Sir Brennen" data-source="post: 8146925" data-attributes="member: 553"><p>I guess it would help to know how combat normally works in the system you're designing. Sounds like it might be some sort of d20 derived system (possibly 5E specifically, since you mention Advantage/Disadvantage a couple times)? Before you get to designing vehicular combat, what is the lethality of something like a PC (of varying experience) vs. a pistol? A rifle? Machine gun? How does armor factor in? Is the system skill based?</p><p></p><p>Responding to the initial Post, I like Savage Worlds way of handling it, where the approach is PCs, Creatures and Vehicles are all generally treated the same at the most basic level. They all have Toughness, which can include Armor, and when they exceed a certain number of Wounds, they're out of commission.</p><p></p><p>Examples:</p><p>Average PC in a leather coat has a base Toughness of 5 + 1 Armor, for a total of 6. They can take 3 Wounds.</p><p>A mid-size car has base Toughness 9 + 2 Armor, for a total of 11. Because it's Large, it can take 4 Wounds.</p><p>A Sherman tank has base Toughness of 16 + 8 Armor, for a total of 24. Because it's Huge, it can take 5 Wounds.</p><p></p><p>At the more detailed level, one critical difference between the car and tank is the tank is a Heavy Vehicle, meaning it can only be damaged by attacks with a Heavy Weapon. A pistol might take out a car, but not a tank. But a bazooka is a Heavy Weapon, and, while not necessarily taking a tank out completely, has a chance to cause a Wound.</p><p></p><p>Most Heavy Weapons will do enough damage to seriously injure, and possibly outright kill, a person. But SW also includes the ability to Evade certain slower moving or telegraphed attacks (from grenades to dragon's breath), and escape injury altogether. SW also includes "Bennies", which allow, among other things, PCs a chance to "soak" Wounds with a roll, meaning fate allowed them to avoid some or all of the damage from even a direct hit. Similar to the per-encounter "saves" you mention.</p><p></p><p>Damage to a vehicle has two effects:</p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The pilot/driver has to make a check to avoid going Out of Control. Failure has numerous possible effects, determined by a random table, including damage to occupants.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The vehicle takes a "critical hit", again determined randomly. It might be just structural damage, represented by Wounds, or something more important like an engine (reducing speed) or weapon. Or crew.</li> </ol><p>For your system, I'm not sure how much it might differ from your core mechanic, but rather than simply adding the pilot's HP to the vehicle's, what if his level or skill subtracts from the damage? This would allow a skilled PC take out "mook" TIE fighters rather quickly (assuming they have lower skill) but a equal level one would still present a challenge.</p><p></p><p>Regarding Vehicular Combat, unrelated to Damage:</p><p></p><p>Don't make it simply normal combat. Many systems use Chase rules. This then opens up options for the pilot/driver. Are they trying to catch up/get away from the enemy? Evade attacks? Use their own vehicle as a weapon to ram the opponent or force them to change course? Holding it steady so gunners can get a better shot (and risk becoming an easier target?)</p><p></p><p>Something else Chases often include: random challenges or obstacles each round. This can keep the conflict from feeling like just repeatedly "roll to hit" actions.</p><p></p><p>SW is also pretty liberal with allowing PCs to make Support roles, essentially the Help action from 5E. If the player can come up a reasonable use of a skill, they can roll and add a bonus to another character's action, especially for those who<em> aren't </em>the pilot/driver or gunner/shooter. A successful Notice roll will help the driver avoid the baby buggy crossing the street. The starship's Electronics expert can help the gunner get a better lock on the enemy ship. Etc.</p><p></p><p>Another thing SW includes for vehicle combat is that movement can consist of Changing Position (getting closer/farther away from the opponent) or Evasion. There's some other options, but these two in particular can be taken as either a free action, or the pilot/driver's full action for the round. Evasion, for example, gives a -2 to attacks on the vehicle, but also attacks <em>by</em> the vehicle (or it's occupants). Using a full action doubles this bonus/penalty. This way a single occupant craft could perform a maneuver while still getting to attack.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sir Brennen, post: 8146925, member: 553"] I guess it would help to know how combat normally works in the system you're designing. Sounds like it might be some sort of d20 derived system (possibly 5E specifically, since you mention Advantage/Disadvantage a couple times)? Before you get to designing vehicular combat, what is the lethality of something like a PC (of varying experience) vs. a pistol? A rifle? Machine gun? How does armor factor in? Is the system skill based? Responding to the initial Post, I like Savage Worlds way of handling it, where the approach is PCs, Creatures and Vehicles are all generally treated the same at the most basic level. They all have Toughness, which can include Armor, and when they exceed a certain number of Wounds, they're out of commission. Examples: Average PC in a leather coat has a base Toughness of 5 + 1 Armor, for a total of 6. They can take 3 Wounds. A mid-size car has base Toughness 9 + 2 Armor, for a total of 11. Because it's Large, it can take 4 Wounds. A Sherman tank has base Toughness of 16 + 8 Armor, for a total of 24. Because it's Huge, it can take 5 Wounds. At the more detailed level, one critical difference between the car and tank is the tank is a Heavy Vehicle, meaning it can only be damaged by attacks with a Heavy Weapon. A pistol might take out a car, but not a tank. But a bazooka is a Heavy Weapon, and, while not necessarily taking a tank out completely, has a chance to cause a Wound. Most Heavy Weapons will do enough damage to seriously injure, and possibly outright kill, a person. But SW also includes the ability to Evade certain slower moving or telegraphed attacks (from grenades to dragon's breath), and escape injury altogether. SW also includes "Bennies", which allow, among other things, PCs a chance to "soak" Wounds with a roll, meaning fate allowed them to avoid some or all of the damage from even a direct hit. Similar to the per-encounter "saves" you mention. Damage to a vehicle has two effects: [LIST=1] [*]The pilot/driver has to make a check to avoid going Out of Control. Failure has numerous possible effects, determined by a random table, including damage to occupants. [*]The vehicle takes a "critical hit", again determined randomly. It might be just structural damage, represented by Wounds, or something more important like an engine (reducing speed) or weapon. Or crew. [/LIST] For your system, I'm not sure how much it might differ from your core mechanic, but rather than simply adding the pilot's HP to the vehicle's, what if his level or skill subtracts from the damage? This would allow a skilled PC take out "mook" TIE fighters rather quickly (assuming they have lower skill) but a equal level one would still present a challenge. Regarding Vehicular Combat, unrelated to Damage: Don't make it simply normal combat. Many systems use Chase rules. This then opens up options for the pilot/driver. Are they trying to catch up/get away from the enemy? Evade attacks? Use their own vehicle as a weapon to ram the opponent or force them to change course? Holding it steady so gunners can get a better shot (and risk becoming an easier target?) Something else Chases often include: random challenges or obstacles each round. This can keep the conflict from feeling like just repeatedly "roll to hit" actions. SW is also pretty liberal with allowing PCs to make Support roles, essentially the Help action from 5E. If the player can come up a reasonable use of a skill, they can roll and add a bonus to another character's action, especially for those who[I] aren't [/I]the pilot/driver or gunner/shooter. A successful Notice roll will help the driver avoid the baby buggy crossing the street. The starship's Electronics expert can help the gunner get a better lock on the enemy ship. Etc. Another thing SW includes for vehicle combat is that movement can consist of Changing Position (getting closer/farther away from the opponent) or Evasion. There's some other options, but these two in particular can be taken as either a free action, or the pilot/driver's full action for the round. Evasion, for example, gives a -2 to attacks on the vehicle, but also attacks [I]by[/I] the vehicle (or it's occupants). Using a full action doubles this bonus/penalty. This way a single occupant craft could perform a maneuver while still getting to attack. [/QUOTE]
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