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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khur" data-source="post: 503888" data-attributes="member: 5583">Re: Thanks ... keep 'em coming! It's fine to disagree with me, but your opinion is slightly askew for few reasons.First, the fact that spellcasters "suck" at Bluff , which I take to mean none of them get it as a class skill, is wholly irrelevant. Just because one can't get really good at a skill doesn't make that skill invalid in application to a particular problem. Suggesting that a spellcaster-oriented ability (making one's spell subtle) shouldn't use a particular skill just because the classes in question don't have access to it as a class skill is illogical. Note that fighters don't have access to Profession, yet Profession (siege engineer) is required to fire siege weapons. Who, exactly, is the most likely candidate for being on a battlefield firing a siege weapon? An Expert?Second, Bluff has precedent in making others believe one thing is happening, when in fact something entirely different is going on. Hence, Bluff allows a character to feint, create a diversion to hide, and gives a synergy bonus to Pick Pockets (a skill that can also be used to perform sleight of hand or holdout maneuvers). So, Bluff is not merely skill at telling falsehoods.Third, that Spellcraft is a measure of one's skill with magic is contentious. I admit it does make sense to interpret the skill in such a way. Yet, the PHB clearly states that the skill is used to identify magic, whether while it's being cast or spells already in place. Spellcraft is also used to translate spells from sources other than your own spellbook and to invent new spells, which lends a little bit of credence to your position. It seems that Spellcraft, arguably, is the science of spell construction and deconstruction.Yet, by the logic of your assertion, a feint should not be a Bluff roll either. By your assertion a feint should be a matter of skill at arms (and that would seem to be true in reality). Whether your logic is faulty is not the point. It's simply a fact that the rules of 3e say a feint is a Bluff. This means a 10th-level Rogue (better at Bluff) is better at feinting than a 10th-level fighter (better at arms). (Fighters "suck" at Bluff too.)I wouldn't have a problem if you, as my DM, said, "We're going to use Spellcraft as a measure of magical skill. This means if you do anything at all that manipulates magic in any way, it's a Spellcraft check." That's not what the rules say it's for, however.Thanks for your input. It's appreciated.As for psionic displays, I didn't forget about them totally. Charm person causes a mental display (tinkling bells). It's hard to say whether a person hearing the display would know what it meant. In other words, it's a lot easier to spot a gesticulating and chanting caster than it is to associate tinkling bells with a psion. Imagine if this "mental display" occured in the middle of a crowded street festival. Now imagine the same festival with a wizard performing arcane somatics. You get the point.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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