Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A Question for the 25 and under crowd - What have you read?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Storm Raven" data-source="post: 4878692" data-attributes="member: 307"><p>It isn't new, but it isn't very well supported. Anyone who actually reads the books would fined the assertions made about ERB laughable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Laughable like these sorts of claims. As pointed out before, Carter is <em>not</em> the only white man on the planet. (For some of the stories, he's not even the only American on the planet). There is an entire race of white martians (the Therns), and they are ruthlessly evil. How is that an example of "white guys are good"? There are also black martians, yellow martians, red martians, and green martians (as well as stranger beings like the plant men of mars and the kaldanes). Oddly, the red martians are explictly described as being the result of millennia of intermixing between the various martian races (excepting the green, who are radically different than any other martian race) resulting in a reddish skin tone. How the mixing of black, yellow and white results in red is a mystery to me, but that's not the point. The point is that if there was an implied racism here, then this would be described by the pejorative term "miscegenation" and condemned. Contrary to that, however, the red martians are described as the most civilized of all martians.</p><p></p><p>When Carter settles into martian society, he fits in, not because he is somehow superior to them morally, but because he is incredibly violent and warlike, just as they are. He becomes warlord of Mars, not by changing martian society, but by becoming part of it. It is hard to see how this marks him as being superior to the martians in any way other than swordsmanship. Further, other than the green martians, none of the various races of martians could be termed uncivilized, and most are explicitly described as being much <em>more</em> civilized and with better technology than humans have. In point of fact, if there is any kind of idealization that ERB indulges in it is the "noble savage" being superior to the decadent civilized man. In many ways, Carter succeeds not because he is more civilized than the martians, but rather because he is more barbaric.</p><p></p><p>I find your assertion that the green martians are somehow supposed to be a stand in for communism fairly unconvincing. Yes, children are raised communally, and all property is shared. On the other hand, the green martians hold slaves, have a king for a leader, and advance in rank by killing their superiors. Hardly a socialist vision of society. If ERB was trying to parody communism with the green martians, he did a poor job of it, especially since the green martians (under Tars Tarkus) become stalwart and loyal allies to Carter throughout the books. If he wanted to parody communism, he also had ample opportunities in other books outside the Barsoom series that would have been much easier, but he failed to do so. In <em>The Mad King</em>, set in eastern Europe during WWI, it would have been easy to introduce a communist villain to the story of royal intrigue and nationalist warfare, but he didn't. In the <em>Tarzan</em> books, the villain Rokloff is a Russian spy, a perfect opportunity to introduce a communist sympathizer, but Rokloff is an out and out czarist instead. Given that he passed up these golden opportunities to include evil communists in stories much better suited to their presence, it strains credulity to think that he included them in such a subtle way in <em>A Princess of Mars</em>.</p><p></p><p>The green martians seem to me to be much more like Spartan culture, and given that they are presented as an idealized warrior race and ERB was clearly interested in classical studies, they are probably a more likely inspirations. Given their nomadic culture and warlike ways, the green martians are also probably inspired by the plains Indians or the Mongols (or both), although they are clearly idealized as noble savages. Note, however, that Carter doesn't change their culture at all. The green martians remain unrepentant savages throughout the entire series of books.</p><p></p><p>When I picked up the various ERB books, I had been told about their racist overtones, and to be perfectly honest, I was not surprised when people warned me, as I have read a fair amount of pulp fiction from that time period. But when I read the books, I found that the "racism" of the novels is only a factor if you sort of half read them. You can draw racist conclusions from some of the things that happen in the books, but only if you don't read the entire book, and only if you aren't paying attention. Having read many of the "ERB has racism" treatments, I can only conclude that the authors of those pieces decided that since ERB wrote "only" pulp novels, that they could merely skim through the books and draw conclusions from that rather than actually reading them, because the criticisms simply don't hold up under any kind of scrutiny.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Storm Raven, post: 4878692, member: 307"] It isn't new, but it isn't very well supported. Anyone who actually reads the books would fined the assertions made about ERB laughable. Laughable like these sorts of claims. As pointed out before, Carter is [i]not[/i] the only white man on the planet. (For some of the stories, he's not even the only American on the planet). There is an entire race of white martians (the Therns), and they are ruthlessly evil. How is that an example of "white guys are good"? There are also black martians, yellow martians, red martians, and green martians (as well as stranger beings like the plant men of mars and the kaldanes). Oddly, the red martians are explictly described as being the result of millennia of intermixing between the various martian races (excepting the green, who are radically different than any other martian race) resulting in a reddish skin tone. How the mixing of black, yellow and white results in red is a mystery to me, but that's not the point. The point is that if there was an implied racism here, then this would be described by the pejorative term "miscegenation" and condemned. Contrary to that, however, the red martians are described as the most civilized of all martians. When Carter settles into martian society, he fits in, not because he is somehow superior to them morally, but because he is incredibly violent and warlike, just as they are. He becomes warlord of Mars, not by changing martian society, but by becoming part of it. It is hard to see how this marks him as being superior to the martians in any way other than swordsmanship. Further, other than the green martians, none of the various races of martians could be termed uncivilized, and most are explicitly described as being much [i]more[/i] civilized and with better technology than humans have. In point of fact, if there is any kind of idealization that ERB indulges in it is the "noble savage" being superior to the decadent civilized man. In many ways, Carter succeeds not because he is more civilized than the martians, but rather because he is more barbaric. I find your assertion that the green martians are somehow supposed to be a stand in for communism fairly unconvincing. Yes, children are raised communally, and all property is shared. On the other hand, the green martians hold slaves, have a king for a leader, and advance in rank by killing their superiors. Hardly a socialist vision of society. If ERB was trying to parody communism with the green martians, he did a poor job of it, especially since the green martians (under Tars Tarkus) become stalwart and loyal allies to Carter throughout the books. If he wanted to parody communism, he also had ample opportunities in other books outside the Barsoom series that would have been much easier, but he failed to do so. In [i]The Mad King[/i], set in eastern Europe during WWI, it would have been easy to introduce a communist villain to the story of royal intrigue and nationalist warfare, but he didn't. In the [i]Tarzan[/i] books, the villain Rokloff is a Russian spy, a perfect opportunity to introduce a communist sympathizer, but Rokloff is an out and out czarist instead. Given that he passed up these golden opportunities to include evil communists in stories much better suited to their presence, it strains credulity to think that he included them in such a subtle way in [i]A Princess of Mars[/i]. The green martians seem to me to be much more like Spartan culture, and given that they are presented as an idealized warrior race and ERB was clearly interested in classical studies, they are probably a more likely inspirations. Given their nomadic culture and warlike ways, the green martians are also probably inspired by the plains Indians or the Mongols (or both), although they are clearly idealized as noble savages. Note, however, that Carter doesn't change their culture at all. The green martians remain unrepentant savages throughout the entire series of books. When I picked up the various ERB books, I had been told about their racist overtones, and to be perfectly honest, I was not surprised when people warned me, as I have read a fair amount of pulp fiction from that time period. But when I read the books, I found that the "racism" of the novels is only a factor if you sort of half read them. You can draw racist conclusions from some of the things that happen in the books, but only if you don't read the entire book, and only if you aren't paying attention. Having read many of the "ERB has racism" treatments, I can only conclude that the authors of those pieces decided that since ERB wrote "only" pulp novels, that they could merely skim through the books and draw conclusions from that rather than actually reading them, because the criticisms simply don't hold up under any kind of scrutiny. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A Question for the 25 and under crowd - What have you read?
Top