Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A Question Of Agency?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8129441" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>I think there is a difference, and it's intent. Illusionism is an a deliberate act to conceal the removal of agency. That's not necessarily bad -- I do not think the removal or limitation of agency is inherently bad in games -- in fact, most games require strong limitations on agency to function. D&D, played in the traditional way where the GM preps ahead of time and owns the setting the players explore, quite often encourages techniques like Illusionism so that the work done by the GM is not overwhelming. There are reasonable applications of Illusionism in D&D, although I personally avoid them. Regardless, Illusionism is always a deliberate act.</p><p></p><p>'Making things up,' on the other hand, may be a deliberate choice to remove agency, but it's very, very hard to conceal. If you're making things up so that you're maintaining a hard level of control over the fiction such that you're engaged in a railroad, or a playground version of nuh-uh, then, yes, this is both an abusive and deliberate act to remove agency, but it's also not concealed. However, you can 'make things up' using a strong set of principles and constraints and not do either of these things. You can 'make things up' in a way that doesn't remove any agency and instead promotes it (just like you can run traditional D&D in ways that promote agency, this isn't a competition). Illusionism can never do this -- it's a deliberate removal of agency.</p><p></p><p>So, yeah, I don't think the difference is either murky or not worth discussing. There's a clear line in how the technique function, regardless of whether or not you're invoking degenerate and bad faith play for either. If you stick to good faith play, there's still a difference, and, yes, I think Illusionism can be used in good faith -- it's a tool to reduce GM prep. I think overuse moves to bad faith, regardless of motivation in any specific instance -- it's a tool that creates railroads and hides the tracks if overused. Occasional use, especially as a buffer to use when you need bridge content because the party has either thrown you a loop or you didn't have enough direction to prep the next leg is, to me, just fine. I don't need to tell players that this encounter chain was going to happen no matter what because I need more time to prep where they just decided to go. In that case, orcs in the Dark Wood are what you get.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8129441, member: 16814"] I think there is a difference, and it's intent. Illusionism is an a deliberate act to conceal the removal of agency. That's not necessarily bad -- I do not think the removal or limitation of agency is inherently bad in games -- in fact, most games require strong limitations on agency to function. D&D, played in the traditional way where the GM preps ahead of time and owns the setting the players explore, quite often encourages techniques like Illusionism so that the work done by the GM is not overwhelming. There are reasonable applications of Illusionism in D&D, although I personally avoid them. Regardless, Illusionism is always a deliberate act. 'Making things up,' on the other hand, may be a deliberate choice to remove agency, but it's very, very hard to conceal. If you're making things up so that you're maintaining a hard level of control over the fiction such that you're engaged in a railroad, or a playground version of nuh-uh, then, yes, this is both an abusive and deliberate act to remove agency, but it's also not concealed. However, you can 'make things up' using a strong set of principles and constraints and not do either of these things. You can 'make things up' in a way that doesn't remove any agency and instead promotes it (just like you can run traditional D&D in ways that promote agency, this isn't a competition). Illusionism can never do this -- it's a deliberate removal of agency. So, yeah, I don't think the difference is either murky or not worth discussing. There's a clear line in how the technique function, regardless of whether or not you're invoking degenerate and bad faith play for either. If you stick to good faith play, there's still a difference, and, yes, I think Illusionism can be used in good faith -- it's a tool to reduce GM prep. I think overuse moves to bad faith, regardless of motivation in any specific instance -- it's a tool that creates railroads and hides the tracks if overused. Occasional use, especially as a buffer to use when you need bridge content because the party has either thrown you a loop or you didn't have enough direction to prep the next leg is, to me, just fine. I don't need to tell players that this encounter chain was going to happen no matter what because I need more time to prep where they just decided to go. In that case, orcs in the Dark Wood are what you get. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A Question Of Agency?
Top