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A Question Of Agency?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8131824" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Agreed.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Not fully agreed. I've got nothing against such systems - though the ones I use (eg Burning Wheel, MHRP/Cortex+) tend to treat it as part of ordinary action resolution rather than via a separate point-expenditure system.</p><p></p><p>But games can have full-fledge player agency without those sorts of mechanics - eg Prince Valiant, and (most of the time) Classic Traveller.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I tend to take a fairly relaxed approach to this: I will often start with the NPC first, establishing their attitude either by fiat or by reading of some other system cue (eg in Classic Traveller there might be a reaction roll; or if the NPC is the outcome of a roll on the random patron table, then that establishes that they are in the market for some non-standard service providers such as the PCs!); and then build up the details of motivation and backstory as things unfold, both as part of action resolution and in order to keep things moving if they seem to be flagging.</p><p></p><p>My approach here has been influenced, I think, by <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=1361" target="_blank">this old Forge post from Paul Czege</a>:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">I frame the character into the middle of conflicts I think will push and pull in ways that are interesting to me and to the player. I keep NPC personalities somewhat unfixed in my mind, allowing me to retroactively justify their behaviors in support of this.</p><p></p><p>I don't think my games are very often as emotionally intense as the sort of thing Paul Czege is going for, but the basic approach is one I've found very instructive. I used it at the start of my current Classic Traveller campaign, for example, to gradually build up the details of the bioweapons plot the PCs were enmeshed in (some relevant actual play posts <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/classic-traveller-session-report-with-reflections-on-the-system-long.586642/" target="_blank">here</a> and <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/classic-traveller-a-dice-driven-game.605171/" target="_blank">here</a>).</p><p></p><p>This approach helps preserve player agency and avoid illusionism, because consequences and revelations happen downstream of action resolution, not upstream.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know what "railroading yourself" means here.</p><p></p><p>As a GM it's natural to frame situations and establish fiction that seem interesting to you (with the hope that they will also interest the players). But if the players are genuinely exercising agency then I don't see where any railroading is going to come from.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't agree with this at all, for basically the same reasons as [USER=16814]@Ovinomancer[/USER].</p><p></p><p>If the players <em>know</em> how much agency they have, and are happy with that, then I agree that that is sufficient. But <em>feel </em>seems to leave open the possibility of misapprehension, perhaps as a result of deliberate trickery or manipulation ("illusionism") on the part of the GM. As a GM, I'm not interested in that; and as a player I think it's pretty fraught - I've seen games come unstuck when the illusion has been revealed!</p><p></p><p>If the GM is going to curtail player agency I would prefer that be clear upfront - which can include it being implicit in the system (eg if I play a CoC scenario at a tournament, as used to back in the day, I don't expect to have much influence on events beyond thespianising my character; in return I expect to be entertained by a GM who is able to evoke mood and feeling through effective narration and characterisation of NPCs).</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think there can be good reasons not to retrospectively decide that something was a lie, because this risks destabilising the players' confidence in GM narration, which - somewhat independent of the agency question - can lead to a bit of a downward spiral.</p><p></p><p>But just focusing on the relationship between the NPC lie, the retrospectivity, and player agency - to me this goes right back to the issue of <em>how is it decided</em> and <em>how does it relate to action resolution</em>? If the decision that the information was false is part of adjudicating a failed check, that would seem fair game.</p><p></p><p>Or imagine an Apocalypse World game where, at some earlier point, the PC (and hence player) learned such-and-such from a NPC. And then further play has revealed that NPC to be a slimy weasel who's not to be trusted. And then a player <em>succeeds </em>on a check to read a charged situation - maybe the GM gives information that is (i) true, as it must be given the player's success, and (ii) reveals the NPC to have been lying all along! In the right context that needn't be any sort of illusionism, nor threat to player agency - it might <em>affirm </em>the players' emerging sense of the NPC's untrustworthiness and provide them with a valuable edge at a crucial moment (which presumably this is, given that at least one player is having his/her PC read a charged situation).</p><p></p><p>In the opening session of my Classic Traveller game (linked to above in this post), the players met a patron (rolled by me as GM on the random patron encounter table) who recruited them for a particular cargo-carrying job (made up by me on the spot so as to incorporate both (i) what little established backstory we had out of PC generation and initial world generation, and (ii) a couple of other worlds that I'd rolled up before the session). The story didn't make much sense, and so the "spy" PC invited the patron NPC back to his room where he "interrogated" (ie seduced) her and got more information. I had to make up that additional information, and part of that involved revealing some elements of her initial approach as, if not outright lies, at least less than full disclosure.</p><p></p><p>This didn't negate any player agency. It affirmed it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8131824, member: 42582"] Agreed. Not fully agreed. I've got nothing against such systems - though the ones I use (eg Burning Wheel, MHRP/Cortex+) tend to treat it as part of ordinary action resolution rather than via a separate point-expenditure system. But games can have full-fledge player agency without those sorts of mechanics - eg Prince Valiant, and (most of the time) Classic Traveller. I tend to take a fairly relaxed approach to this: I will often start with the NPC first, establishing their attitude either by fiat or by reading of some other system cue (eg in Classic Traveller there might be a reaction roll; or if the NPC is the outcome of a roll on the random patron table, then that establishes that they are in the market for some non-standard service providers such as the PCs!); and then build up the details of motivation and backstory as things unfold, both as part of action resolution and in order to keep things moving if they seem to be flagging. My approach here has been influenced, I think, by [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=1361]this old Forge post from Paul Czege[/url]: [indent]I frame the character into the middle of conflicts I think will push and pull in ways that are interesting to me and to the player. I keep NPC personalities somewhat unfixed in my mind, allowing me to retroactively justify their behaviors in support of this.[/indent] I don't think my games are very often as emotionally intense as the sort of thing Paul Czege is going for, but the basic approach is one I've found very instructive. I used it at the start of my current Classic Traveller campaign, for example, to gradually build up the details of the bioweapons plot the PCs were enmeshed in (some relevant actual play posts [url=https://www.enworld.org/threads/classic-traveller-session-report-with-reflections-on-the-system-long.586642/]here[/url] and [url=https://www.enworld.org/threads/classic-traveller-a-dice-driven-game.605171/]here[/url]). This approach helps preserve player agency and avoid illusionism, because consequences and revelations happen downstream of action resolution, not upstream. I don't know what "railroading yourself" means here. As a GM it's natural to frame situations and establish fiction that seem interesting to you (with the hope that they will also interest the players). But if the players are genuinely exercising agency then I don't see where any railroading is going to come from. I don't agree with this at all, for basically the same reasons as [USER=16814]@Ovinomancer[/USER]. If the players [I]know[/I] how much agency they have, and are happy with that, then I agree that that is sufficient. But [I]feel [/I]seems to leave open the possibility of misapprehension, perhaps as a result of deliberate trickery or manipulation ("illusionism") on the part of the GM. As a GM, I'm not interested in that; and as a player I think it's pretty fraught - I've seen games come unstuck when the illusion has been revealed! If the GM is going to curtail player agency I would prefer that be clear upfront - which can include it being implicit in the system (eg if I play a CoC scenario at a tournament, as used to back in the day, I don't expect to have much influence on events beyond thespianising my character; in return I expect to be entertained by a GM who is able to evoke mood and feeling through effective narration and characterisation of NPCs). I think there can be good reasons not to retrospectively decide that something was a lie, because this risks destabilising the players' confidence in GM narration, which - somewhat independent of the agency question - can lead to a bit of a downward spiral. But just focusing on the relationship between the NPC lie, the retrospectivity, and player agency - to me this goes right back to the issue of [I]how is it decided[/I] and [I]how does it relate to action resolution[/I]? If the decision that the information was false is part of adjudicating a failed check, that would seem fair game. Or imagine an Apocalypse World game where, at some earlier point, the PC (and hence player) learned such-and-such from a NPC. And then further play has revealed that NPC to be a slimy weasel who's not to be trusted. And then a player [I]succeeds [/I]on a check to read a charged situation - maybe the GM gives information that is (i) true, as it must be given the player's success, and (ii) reveals the NPC to have been lying all along! In the right context that needn't be any sort of illusionism, nor threat to player agency - it might [I]affirm [/I]the players' emerging sense of the NPC's untrustworthiness and provide them with a valuable edge at a crucial moment (which presumably this is, given that at least one player is having his/her PC read a charged situation). In the opening session of my Classic Traveller game (linked to above in this post), the players met a patron (rolled by me as GM on the random patron encounter table) who recruited them for a particular cargo-carrying job (made up by me on the spot so as to incorporate both (i) what little established backstory we had out of PC generation and initial world generation, and (ii) a couple of other worlds that I'd rolled up before the session). The story didn't make much sense, and so the "spy" PC invited the patron NPC back to his room where he "interrogated" (ie seduced) her and got more information. I had to make up that additional information, and part of that involved revealing some elements of her initial approach as, if not outright lies, at least less than full disclosure. This didn't negate any player agency. It affirmed it. [/QUOTE]
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