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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8133424" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Yup.  This is absolutely true.  Explicit instruction to "follow the rules" and "play to find out what happens" do a huge amount of work in those games.  However, that isn't the only thing those have that make them that way and 4e is a perfect example of why a particular cross-section of D&D culture revolted against it:* Intense codification of action resolution that is overt and heavily bounded.  4e maths were explicit and by level;  Defenses/HPs/To Hit/Damage, Easy, Moderate, Hard DCs.  Skill Challenges codified noncombat conflict resolution in the same way that Clocks in Apocalypse World (and Blades) does, both in terms of maths and procedures.* Robust, thematic PCs that are encouraged to be bold by the system and the ethos.* Player-facing action resolution, Rest cycle and Milestone mechanics, treasure-handling, etc.* Quest Mechanics (this is your "Expressed a Challenge via" and Expressed your Beliefs, Drives, etc" and all the rest in Blades).* It all...just works to propel play through snowballing conflict with the PCs as protagonists...no Force needed.I'm sure that all sounds familiar!Well, if you're either a GM or a player that doesn't like any of:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Intense codification</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Player-facing mechanics</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The responsibility being put on the players to provide the energy to propel play through their PCs</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An environment that makes any application of GM Force extremely obvious</li> </ul>...well, you're not going to like 4e.There are plenty of other reasons to not like 4e (they've been discussed ad nauseum and this isn't about 4e but rather constituent parts of system and their impact on play), but as it pertains to this thread and the subject at hand, those 4 are certainly big ones (with other downstream intangible effects arising because of one or multiple of them).</blockquote>

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