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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8141833" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Here is my theory on this (and you've heard this before):You've got a group (likely the majority or at least a very large swell) of D&D players (GMs included here) that are cobbling together a huge number of D&D-isms that are often at tension, while simultaneously having left some/a lot of the necessary codified teeth of these D&D-isms behind which give the decisions actual meaning in the greater framework of play.Constituent parts of this:1) All doors (used here as a broad stand-in for discovery points or exploration bottlenecks) potentially need to have meaning/purpose because "time is (allegedly) a resource."  HOWEVER, the structure of play has simultaneously removed (a) the tracked and table-facing Exploration Turn as the primary unit of play (replete with all of its attendant management and load-out decisions) and/or (b) there is no "wandering monsters/obstacle clock" and no "required rest cycle" (both of which are integrated with the Exploration Turn structure).In its place you have (c) a roughly opaque, hand-waved kept time (which is no longer a codified unit of play) but (d) no integrated (and table-facing) pressure ("clocks/rest cycle").  Because this tech has been excised (or hand-waved to the point of meaninglessness because all of its teeth are gone), something must supplant it...2)  Cue "high resolution is better than lower resolution/process-sim interests" + "people are better simulators than game engines!"  Supplant the prior design and aesthetic with this new approach.  So we've kept the play-priority at the very top of (1) but removed the structure that actually makes it work and in its place we've anointed "GM as abstract world simulator" + "player buy-in" = roughly the same thing (or better!) as (a) and (b) above. Except its not.  Its not "better" and its definitely not the same thing.  Its entirely different.3)  Couple (1) and (2) above with the well-known reality that the "delve model" that works so well in Basic comes apart when outside of the dungeon (wilderness and urban environments) and as level creep occurs because the setting/situations and the attendant decision-points have so many more axes + spellcasting power creep begins outright obviating a huge number of obstacles/conflicts = the play loop comes apart entirely.4)  Now, Dragonlance + 2e + White Wolf metaplot/setting and genre tourism + "immersion/verisimilitude as apex play priority" introduces the "GM as storyteller" agenda to D&D proper.  So now we have D&D players who want to bolt-on an entirely new (and deeply at tension with an existing structure that is already bursting or has burst if you're out of the dungeon/level 5+) play priority and aesthetic.  However, the existing structure and infrastructure doesn't support it at all (and, again, is at tension with it in many plays), so we give the GM more authority/overhead; "GM as abstract world simulator" "GM as metaplot and/or setting/genre tour guide" + "player buy-in" = roughly the same thing (or better!) as (a) and (b) above. Except, again, its not.  Its not "better" and its definitely not the same thing.  Its entirely different.5)  Trying to juggle legacy play artifacts (which are still wanted) with disparate machinery and play agenda and now we've finally arrived at "Force and Illusionism are required to keep the whole thing together".  The problem with that is Force and Illusionism fundamentally violate the skilled play agenda of (1) above.  6)  Cue the "rules need to get out of the way" and "system doesn't matter" ethoi.[HR][/HR]Roughly put:* A properly run Moldvay Basic game and a properly run 4e game plays and feels absolutely nothing like one of these games.* Competing agendas and system that is at tension (at best) with one or more agendas need to be curated and holistically integrated to better serve the players...or stripped down and supplanted by "GM sorts all this stuff out + we buy in" and happily lived with.</blockquote>

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