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A Question Of Agency?
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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 8146015" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>What does "get it right" mean? There is no right answer. Without any kind of rules in play, all of it is dependent on the GM's idea. Which is fine if that's how everyone prefers to play, but it doesn't allow for a high amount of agency. </p><p></p><p>Can the player determine the outcome? Can they somehow reach a result that the GM must honor? </p><p></p><p>Is the path to success determined by the player or the GM? If I want to intimidate the NPC into acquiescence, or if I want to flatter him, or if I want to bribe him......what paths are open to me as a player? </p><p></p><p>It's not a matter of me "trusting" the GM. I trust that just about anyone can imagine a fictional reason for a fictional person's behavior. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>So the players decide when it's enough?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, who wants to roll dice to determine what happens? What a stupid idea! </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's not what I'm talking about though. </p><p></p><p>Would you agree that in the real world, sometimes people can be surprised by their own reactions to something? They let themselves be convinced by a salesman, or they let a pretty face distract them, or they believe something told to them by someone they know they shouldn't trust? They do something that is not the most sensible or likely response. This actually happens quite often in real life, no?</p><p></p><p>So if your GMing technique is to imagine all the fictional factors that go into a NPC's thought process, and then to determine the most likely reaction in any given moment.....how do you allow for a less likely result from a NPC? The local lord who seems very unlikely to respond to a threat from a wandering adventurer....how does your game allow for this lord to have ever been intimidated by a PC? </p><p></p><p>If the answer is that you consider what the player says from the PCs perspective and decide accordingly, then it's ultimately GM fiat. It's always subject to your opinion. The player does not have any means to determine the result without your approval. </p><p></p><p>This is not a matter of trust; I would guess that you'd probably use decent judgment in most cases. It's a matter of preference. I prefer that the situation or problem be crafted by the GM, and that the resolution of that situation or problem be crafted by the players. </p><p></p><p>If the GM presents the challenge and has also determined its resolution, then the players aren't free to forge their own path, are they? they're just moving along the paths already determined by the GM.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right. But until someone says something like "we don't use encumbrance" I'm gonna assume it's a part of the game, even though I also don't use encumbrance. The starting point for discussion should the what's universal to us all, right? So that's the actual content of the text in question.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, I agree that the GM should not even have called for a roll if there was no chance of success. Or they could allow a roll and on a success, honor it. </p><p></p><p>There's any number of ways it could have been handled. Some games would have one established process for this, and would follow that process. Some games (I had 3.x/Pathfinder in mind with my example) would have far less consistent processes for play.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know if I agree with that. I would think that if something is impossible, then the PC would likely know it, and the GM can simply point that out to them. </p><p></p><p>If it's a matter of the impossibility of the task being unknown to the player, that's where I think the problem lies. Either the GM has determined the outcome of something ahead of time, or has failed to present the fiction in a clear way, or something else has likely gone wrong.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 8146015, member: 6785785"] What does "get it right" mean? There is no right answer. Without any kind of rules in play, all of it is dependent on the GM's idea. Which is fine if that's how everyone prefers to play, but it doesn't allow for a high amount of agency. Can the player determine the outcome? Can they somehow reach a result that the GM must honor? Is the path to success determined by the player or the GM? If I want to intimidate the NPC into acquiescence, or if I want to flatter him, or if I want to bribe him......what paths are open to me as a player? It's not a matter of me "trusting" the GM. I trust that just about anyone can imagine a fictional reason for a fictional person's behavior. So the players decide when it's enough? Yeah, who wants to roll dice to determine what happens? What a stupid idea! That's not what I'm talking about though. Would you agree that in the real world, sometimes people can be surprised by their own reactions to something? They let themselves be convinced by a salesman, or they let a pretty face distract them, or they believe something told to them by someone they know they shouldn't trust? They do something that is not the most sensible or likely response. This actually happens quite often in real life, no? So if your GMing technique is to imagine all the fictional factors that go into a NPC's thought process, and then to determine the most likely reaction in any given moment.....how do you allow for a less likely result from a NPC? The local lord who seems very unlikely to respond to a threat from a wandering adventurer....how does your game allow for this lord to have ever been intimidated by a PC? If the answer is that you consider what the player says from the PCs perspective and decide accordingly, then it's ultimately GM fiat. It's always subject to your opinion. The player does not have any means to determine the result without your approval. This is not a matter of trust; I would guess that you'd probably use decent judgment in most cases. It's a matter of preference. I prefer that the situation or problem be crafted by the GM, and that the resolution of that situation or problem be crafted by the players. If the GM presents the challenge and has also determined its resolution, then the players aren't free to forge their own path, are they? they're just moving along the paths already determined by the GM. Right. But until someone says something like "we don't use encumbrance" I'm gonna assume it's a part of the game, even though I also don't use encumbrance. The starting point for discussion should the what's universal to us all, right? So that's the actual content of the text in question. Yeah, I agree that the GM should not even have called for a roll if there was no chance of success. Or they could allow a roll and on a success, honor it. There's any number of ways it could have been handled. Some games would have one established process for this, and would follow that process. Some games (I had 3.x/Pathfinder in mind with my example) would have far less consistent processes for play. I don't know if I agree with that. I would think that if something is impossible, then the PC would likely know it, and the GM can simply point that out to them. If it's a matter of the impossibility of the task being unknown to the player, that's where I think the problem lies. Either the GM has determined the outcome of something ahead of time, or has failed to present the fiction in a clear way, or something else has likely gone wrong. [/QUOTE]
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