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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8146487" data-attributes="member: 42582">This feels like a rehash of a series of posts about 50 pages upthread.The default answer is, if the players declare actions that put the archivist's loyalty to their PCs under pressure, then one consequence of failure might be for the GM to narrate that something that follows from a betrayal by the archivist.Huh?I've already referred to an actual play example in Burning Wheel where a PC was affected by Force of Will and so the player had to change a Belief to reflect that. The player didn't cry blue murder. He accepted that that was the upshot of a fairly rolled check on my part for the Dark Naga to cast the spell, in a properly framed encounter with the Dark Naga.I've already referred to another BW actual play example where I pre-empted the GM's desire to get me in a Duel of Wits with my (PC's) mother. I pre-empted by speaking a prayer which freed her from her burdens and weakness.  Had that check failed, then - whatever the other consequences - I would have found myself in that Duel of Wits. Which could have generated an outcome binding on me.In Classic Traveller the social mechanics are not fully applicable to the PCs, but some are. We've had cases where players have failed  rolls which means that their PCs' morale has broken in combat.In Cortex+ Heroic/MHRP all actions are resolved the same way (there are no subsystems). In our LotR game using this system there are characters with Mind Control 6 who are not necessarily magical, just persuasive. If the PCs end up in conflict with them it's possible that they may end up persuaded, partly or even completely.In our Prince Valiant game - as I already said upthread - one of the PCs is hopelessly infatuated with a woman who is not his wife. Mechanically that outcome was established because I used the Incite Lust special effect on the PC. Special Effects, whether used by the GM or by the players (in the latter case via Storyteller Certificates) are sheer fiat. There is no mechanical aspect to it. (There are guidelines to GMs on how to ration the allocation of Special Effects to scenarios: these are the closest that system comes to having something like encounter building guidelines.)But in any event, even if we were to accept your premise, the answer is obvious. The player and GM have completely different roles as participants in the RPGing endeavour. This bring with it different authorities, different responsibilities, and (unsurprisingly) different capacities in the control of the bits of the fiction they "own" which can lead to different liabilities for those bits to be affected by the play of other participants.Apocalypse World makes this super clear in its seduce or manipulate move, which (unlike all the examples I gave earlier in this post) is resolved differently depending on whether the character being seduced/manipulated is a PC (ie the outcome implicates a player's decision about his/her character) or a NPC (ie the outcome implicates a GM's control over one of his/her characters).</blockquote>

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