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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8146840" data-attributes="member: 29398">It's the players' job to advocate for their character and in so doing gain what advantage they can, and IMO this advocacy includes pushing the envelope of the rules.It's the GM's job to push back.  That's why a GM's role is often referred to, in part, as that of referee.This seems conflicted somehow - the GM is supposed to be a fan of the PCs yet at the same time is supposed to go hard-ass on them? (I forget who posted above how 'weak-kneed' GMing doesn't work in those types of games)I mean, it's one or the other: either you're legitimately-but-fairly trying to screw them over (or kill them) and thus forcing them to fight back or you're not; and IMO doing this well requires a mindset of really being their opposition, not their fan.Depends on the particular campaign and-or GM.  A GM running a true sandbox game might very well have such things in some places, and it's on the PCs to pick their spots and find things they can handle, even if only by trial and error.Heh - we used the pre-gens.  There's six of them.  Of those, three finished the dungeon and survived, despite (or more like, because of) the DM running bets among our friends as to which room would be our furthest point of advance before the TPK!OK, I get this.Yeah, not buying this.Over the history of RPGs, chances are that 98+% of all players' first exposure came through D&D.  What this means is that by the time those players get to any other RPG, chances are that most of the "random naive people" have been winnowed out; and many of those players who remain just stick with D&D because it gives them what they want.Players who look for other RPGs usually have a clear idea of what they want that D&D doesn't give them, thus ensuring a higher success ratio for those games as the participants are both already experienced in RPGing and are more invested in making their new game work in hoopes it can give them what D&D didn't.In short, comparing success rates isn't really fair on any level.</blockquote>

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