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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8149792" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I'm not sure why you think that.  When I was composing that above I was (a) drawing upon multiple philosophical sources as it relates to the technical concept of gamestate and (b) thinking of two disparate games (in terms of premise/objective, play procedures, ethos, and genre) that would both be captured to ensure that each constituent part held up; Moldvay Basic D&D (B/X, RC) and Dogs in the Vineyard.  I also wanted it to (c) capture CRPGs, athletic competitions, and board games.  I feel very confident that it works for all of those games.If Moldvay Basic D&D doesn't qualify as "traditional RPG play"...I'm not sure what qualifies?  I can do a perfect breakdown of a Moldvay Basic session using the above concepts. Again, what I think is happening here is that you're folding in certain aspects (in this case Free Play whereby the gamestate isn't sensitive to whatever happens) of your play that you value precisely because you value them.  Please understand that games like Blades, games like Dogs, even Pawn Stance played Moldvay have "gamestate neutral" Free Play.  It may just be GM talking to the players about play during a session.  It may be players talking to other players (not expressed through their characters) during a session.  Hell, it may be the actual Information Gathering phase of Blades in the Dark where the players are mouthing off at each other in their lair, trying to figure out their next Score, then the go out and seek intel or call in favors or lobby NPCs for jobs.  Sometimes "that dog won't hunt" and they'll pass over one opportunity (or maybe even two in a row) for another Score that interests them (due to higher stakes or particular returns).  There will absolutely be aspects of that Free Play that fundamentally do NOT change the orientation or nature of objects in play as it relates to the premise/objective of the game.  Those constituent parts of the Information Gathering phase of play would be "gamestate-irrelevant."  But any aspect of that phase which does fundamentally change the orientation or nature of objects in play (for instance, the choice in Score - this one vs that, or you start a Long Term Project that you'll take up during Downtime, PC vs PC dispute settlement, you get in trouble during your Prowling/Studying/Surveying and that will result in some form of Complication that endures that you'll need to handle downstream before it manifests - like a Racing Clock that you have to work against during Downtime phase or it will materialize in the fiction) is 100 % gamestate-relevant.All of that stuff during the Information Gathering phase of Blades in the Dark that doesn't fundamentally change the orientation or nature of objects in play?  They're fun!  They have value!  But that doesn't change the fact that the gamestate isn't sensitive to them!  Moldvay Basic (which is structured like Blades, as is Torchbearer) is going to have Free Play in the city where the PCs do exactly what Blades PCs do.  Some of that won't be gamestate-relevant.  Same thing.  Its not that it isn't fun or has no value...but the qualities of "fun" and "value" don't make it gamestate-relevant.</blockquote>

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