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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8149901" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Its very relevant because you've made it central in prior posts.  If you're going to accuse me of bad faith in this conversation (accusing someone of construction of a paradigm with willful intent to exclude thing x is a pretty substantial attack on someone's integrity), I'm going to (gently I might add) point out the reality that this concept is independent of me.  Games have an objective (gather sufficient courage and will to rise up and defeat your master, avenge your brother's death, mete out justice and uphold the Faith, fight for your beliefs, make bargains with dark powers to discover if your ambition or humanity will win out, test your skill in extracting treasure from the dungeon, find and defeat Strahd, save the kingdom from the Red Dragon, boldly attack the city's ladder of power with your gang and see how far you can rise before your daring-do catches up with you, etc).  On your way to the game's objective, scenes have an objective ("adjure the spirit", "escape the collapsing mine", "seduce the art gallery curator so you can gain intel on the show" etc).  I've never experienced a game (any game) that is so rudderless that the macro objective cannot be sussed out and that digestible chunks (scenes) on the way to that macro objective aren't possessed of their own objective-based inertia.Could you list some of the exclusions you're envisioning here?How does "the model excludes incorporation of the gamestate-neutral aspects of your play but it includes the gamestate-relevant aspects of your play" arrive at "a distinction without a difference?"If every aspect of your play isn't incorporated into a an analysis framework then the entirety of your play is effectively excluded?  Is that your position (keeping in mind that this is the case for many games, including games I advocate for)?  Again, you misread or misunderstood or perhaps both.I was (a) citing pick-up basketball (there are no referees...there is a "call your own foul" social contract that invariably turns into shenanigans) and (b) citing the gamestate irrelevant shenanigans (arguing > yelling > possibly people taking their ball and going home or fighting or being passive-aggressive...otherwise just making the entire experience bad) that are exactly an emergent quality of lack of independent referees.With respect, outside of the double attack on my integrity again (see the top of this post), I have no idea what the hell you're talking about here.  Why in the world are you even saying the above.  (a) Its a claim about internal consistency of the analysis framework that doesn't remotely stand up to scrutiny (Moldvay Basic doesn't "allow a player to introduce plot elements", in all my times playing basketball and grappling with someone on the mat...I've never introduced plot elements - at least in the way you're thinking of it) and (b) its completely out of nowhere because it doesn't have to do with our conversation.You and I have been down this road before where you've gone to a really hostile and aggressive place with no cause from me.  My integrity and vigilance against any personal biases I may have means a lot to me.  I'm a respectful person who tries hard to keep things civil and extend the benefit of the doubt with the people I converse with (especially those I disagree with).  This isn't real life, so push back on here just means getting more animated and needlessly expending words (which I won't do).  I will, however, tune you out (not ignore you...but I'll just tune you out).  So If you want to keep talking to me about these things, then throttle it back.I don't know the game.  I don't know the game's objective.  I know nothing about FF games (never played any of them).I don't have the design notes or any information from the designers of the game as it pertains to its design and referencing gamestates.  I'd love to see their gamestate map or something like that if one exists.  Do you have something like this?  A reference?  A citation?  I'd be very curious as to their reasoning if there was one and, from first principles, I would disagree with them.  But I'd love to know the reason for the inclusion of (as you put it) a "triviality" as a cog in their gamestate map.</blockquote>

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