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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Crimson Longinus" data-source="post: 8149903" data-attributes="member: 7025508">Yeah, the discussion here has merely strengthened my opinion and 'gamestates' and thus agency based on them are arbitrary value judgements. Games rarely have clearly defined objectives and even when they do, judging which thing is or isn't related to the objective is pretty damn muddy. Some things might be more related, some might be tangentially related, some may appear not to be related at all but will lead to things that become related. And often objective of game might be something pretty vague like "have an action adventure with an interesting cast of characters." And the agency discussion has gotten even grazier. Some people are seriously arguing that having the mechanics make decisions for characters is a higher agency state that the player being able to make those decisions.This is just so far removed from both common understanding of language, how most RPGs are actually played and the things most players care about that it is just nigh completely useless. People have desperately trying to construct objective frameworks to describe subjective things and are so caught in that process that they have lost track of the thing their model is was supposed to represent in the first place.</blockquote>