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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8150033" data-attributes="member: 82106">I think that, in terms of analyzing basic play and game design methodology that we can consider them to be 'recognizably distinct'. Exactly what that means is going to vary based on the game. In BW, for example, it is perfectly feasible to have an 'abstract dungeon' (I recall a [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] example of such involving a Crypt Thing). So, the fact that the PCs are in a specific corridor and facing in a specific direction is simply color in that situation. FATE I believe has 'scene aspects' which are the relevant properties of a specific location. Any other properties of that location aren't relevant and are usually not explicitly defined. So, game state in Moldvay Basic is going to include the PCs exact location in the dungeon and the state of their torch supply. It won't in FATE, necessarily. This also means that in Basic when you traverse the corridor and turn left at the 4-way, the game state has changed. You went 120', a turn went by, the torch burned down, a wandering monster check is due, etc. In FATE such a thing might be mere color, you're still wandering in the Confusing Dark Dungeon Maze. So, we say that state has 'teeth', when it is said to have changed it is not just "a clock ticked a few seconds in the game world", it is more like "we would describe the situation of the party a bit differently because now different choices face them." In my pretend FATE example, maybe the state changes when the PCs fail to get out before their torches burn out. Do they invoke rare and expensive magic to get light, or fumble around in the dark? Personality could become important here, the greedy dwarf was too tight-fisted with the equipment budget to buy enough torches. Maybe that factored into the GM's decision to create a "you are in the dark" consequence to the maze navigation failure. Basic D&D doesn't really have a way to actualize that, although the dwarf player could RP something similar. Is his greediness a 'state of the game' in Basic? I would say, not really. The lack of torches, and the dwarf's bulging purse, are both parts of the state, but the player is entirely free to depict greediness, or not, at any point in the game. He's under no obligation to be consistent, nor to have any dwarf mental state at all beyond the character's knowledge of what is around him, and maybe his memory of what the dwarf did before. If he never does anything with this idea of the dwarf being greedy then did it even exist? It was just color, not game state. And if the elf player decides his character hates the dwarf because it is greedy, what of it? Again, he might use that to explain some concrete action, but he's free not to ever do so, or to even decide the elf wakes up on Tuesday and decides the dwarf is his best buddy! None of this has 'teeth'. Moldvay Basic's process doesn't preclude RP, and it doesn't preclude actualizing that RP in terms of the conditions in the game by means of player's explaining character actions via it. It just doesn't enforce anything. Even after the fact the player may not explain why the dwarf didn't buy torches.</blockquote>

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