Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A Question Of Agency?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8150845" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>You've smuggled in what you like instead of looking at agency, here. Your argument here has nothing to do with the agency to choose a thing and everything to do with what you prefer. </p><p></p><p>I have no idea what games you're talking about, here. You keep arguing against an imaginary construct because you have no experience with the games your imagining here, much less the ones you've assumed do this. Let's look at two instances from my games that "do this." In my 5e game, a character has a background with Mindflayers and Cranium Rats. Both have charm/dominate abilities, so in engaging the player's background in the game these effects have come into play, including directing a character to do specific actions and keep them hidden from their friends. This is an absolute imposition on the player's ability to roleplay their character. In my Blades game, the closest thing to this that has happened was when a character was indulging their vice (the way you reduce Stress) and ended up overindulging (this is a risk if you recover more Stress than you can hold). We agreed to roll to see what happened, and it the result was that the character was cut off from their vice purveyor -- they could no longer satisfy their vice with that purveyor, meaning they need to locate another. As this was an interesting result, I asked the player what their character did to get cut off (this is how the game directs the GM to do such things). Yes, the player had an required result, but their ability to describe that result was no less than the Charmed character in 5e. The main difference here is that the player initiated the risk in my Blades game -- the player understood that the indulge action could result in binding negative outcomes on their character and chose the action. The player in the 5e game had much less choice -- it was my choice as GM to initiate a Charm effect on the character, not the player. Both involve a mechanical check -- indulge roll versus a saving throw, and the outcomes are somewhat analogous if looked at as a binding resolution that the players have some leeway in how they are presented (although I'd argue the Blades player has more leeway, it's not enough to matter). So, agency-wise, both game have do the thing you're denouncing here, but in one it was initiated by the player and in the other it was initiated by the GM.</p><p></p><p>Or, in a simpler form, what your denouncing here is absolutely present in your games as well and they are always initiated when the GM wants. In the games you think you understand (but don't), the GM has very limited ability to initiate these things -- the player initiates and the GM only gets the say when the action fails. And, then, the results look very similar -- binding outcome but the player has leeway to roleplay with it.</p><p></p><p>I find it very strange to be told that a reference to real world agency is a non sequitur by the very poster that introduced it to the thread. Very strange.</p><p></p><p>Well, this is somewhat true -- it dances all over the place. At the core, though, it appears that you want the ability to roleplay in-character to be attached strongly to agency, such that if it is present so is player agency. You further wish to refine this to say that agency is actually defined as being able to role play in-character and not have the game have any say in this role play. </p><p></p><p>The problems here are, as oft mentioned, that the game you champion doing this often violates these principles, but these are ignored because you're used to them. You accuse others of reinventing definitions while gleefully moving goalposts, strawmanning play you don't understand, and engaging in special pleading (by dint of ignoring). So, yeah, at any given moment it's a bit hard to tell exactly what you're arguing. </p><p></p><p>This is avoiding the issue -- you clearly have no problem accusing me of nefarious motives ("NewSpeak," etc) when they suit you, but when asked how you reconcile those nefarious motives with the fact that I act in ways that belie them, you claim a lack of ability to read minds. It's a very odd ability you have to be so selective -- it works when you need to accuse others of bad faith, but fails you when called out.</p><p></p><p>The difference here is that I don't think you're acting in bad faith at all. I don't think this because I wasn't when I held similar opinions. It's literally a matter of experience.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8150845, member: 16814"] You've smuggled in what you like instead of looking at agency, here. Your argument here has nothing to do with the agency to choose a thing and everything to do with what you prefer. I have no idea what games you're talking about, here. You keep arguing against an imaginary construct because you have no experience with the games your imagining here, much less the ones you've assumed do this. Let's look at two instances from my games that "do this." In my 5e game, a character has a background with Mindflayers and Cranium Rats. Both have charm/dominate abilities, so in engaging the player's background in the game these effects have come into play, including directing a character to do specific actions and keep them hidden from their friends. This is an absolute imposition on the player's ability to roleplay their character. In my Blades game, the closest thing to this that has happened was when a character was indulging their vice (the way you reduce Stress) and ended up overindulging (this is a risk if you recover more Stress than you can hold). We agreed to roll to see what happened, and it the result was that the character was cut off from their vice purveyor -- they could no longer satisfy their vice with that purveyor, meaning they need to locate another. As this was an interesting result, I asked the player what their character did to get cut off (this is how the game directs the GM to do such things). Yes, the player had an required result, but their ability to describe that result was no less than the Charmed character in 5e. The main difference here is that the player initiated the risk in my Blades game -- the player understood that the indulge action could result in binding negative outcomes on their character and chose the action. The player in the 5e game had much less choice -- it was my choice as GM to initiate a Charm effect on the character, not the player. Both involve a mechanical check -- indulge roll versus a saving throw, and the outcomes are somewhat analogous if looked at as a binding resolution that the players have some leeway in how they are presented (although I'd argue the Blades player has more leeway, it's not enough to matter). So, agency-wise, both game have do the thing you're denouncing here, but in one it was initiated by the player and in the other it was initiated by the GM. Or, in a simpler form, what your denouncing here is absolutely present in your games as well and they are always initiated when the GM wants. In the games you think you understand (but don't), the GM has very limited ability to initiate these things -- the player initiates and the GM only gets the say when the action fails. And, then, the results look very similar -- binding outcome but the player has leeway to roleplay with it. I find it very strange to be told that a reference to real world agency is a non sequitur by the very poster that introduced it to the thread. Very strange. Well, this is somewhat true -- it dances all over the place. At the core, though, it appears that you want the ability to roleplay in-character to be attached strongly to agency, such that if it is present so is player agency. You further wish to refine this to say that agency is actually defined as being able to role play in-character and not have the game have any say in this role play. The problems here are, as oft mentioned, that the game you champion doing this often violates these principles, but these are ignored because you're used to them. You accuse others of reinventing definitions while gleefully moving goalposts, strawmanning play you don't understand, and engaging in special pleading (by dint of ignoring). So, yeah, at any given moment it's a bit hard to tell exactly what you're arguing. This is avoiding the issue -- you clearly have no problem accusing me of nefarious motives ("NewSpeak," etc) when they suit you, but when asked how you reconcile those nefarious motives with the fact that I act in ways that belie them, you claim a lack of ability to read minds. It's a very odd ability you have to be so selective -- it works when you need to accuse others of bad faith, but fails you when called out. The difference here is that I don't think you're acting in bad faith at all. I don't think this because I wasn't when I held similar opinions. It's literally a matter of experience. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A Question Of Agency?
Top