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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8158847" data-attributes="member: 87792">I disagree that speed has no moral value. As for measuring it objectively, I can legitimately say that for most of the journeys I take walking is faster than taking the plane and no amount of "but planes fly at 200mph" will make that incorrect.And then, if the discussion is going anywhere the next question is "How does your style give maximum X?"And as in this case we have all the people on side B showing how the player can have more agency with things like flashback mechanics or the effectiveness of things like the Fate approach or the GURPS approach or the D&D approach relating to playing a drunken character.From side A we get back either attempts to understand, misrepresentations (and sometimes it's hard to tell the two apart), appeals to different values (such as "no metagaming") which are in and of themselves productive because they show a moral hierarchy, or frequently crickets.One of my crickets examples on the subject of agency is asking people to explain how D&D 4e is any less empowering than e.g. 5e for the GM. I can give an obvious way where it's more empowering (a functional CR system with effects based monster creation makes improvising far easier) but no one has ever given me a direct answer to how 5e is more empowering for the DM other than that it's simpler to remember how to set the DCs if you don't have one tiny table that's on the DM screen to hand.And this, to me, feels like One True Way-ism. I run games including Blades in the Dark, Apocalypse World, and D&D (4e, 5e, and Rules Cyclopaedia). Each of them provides different things and player agency is not a D&D strength. But player agency isn't the only value. Some people like modern indie RPGs, some people like old school sandboxes, and some people like adventure paths. And each have things to offer - but in terms of player agency I've ranked them from high to low. In terms of expected longevity the rankings would be very different and the last Apocalypse World campaign I ran became a glorious player-driven trainwreck in just six sessions, complete with a satisfying and unplanned narrative arc for each of the PCs. That was quick by the standards of Apocalypse World - but I don't expect a campaign to last more than a dozen sessions. Is campaign longevity a value? I'd say yes. So is the accomplishment from conquering a sandbox and more agency would lower the challenge.The biggest pushing of playstyles I see here is from people who think that their playstyle is The One True Way. And that although they claim (rightly) their playstyle allows for more player agency than adventure paths with pre-written plot do they really object to any suggestion that there's even more player agency possible.And in my experience the people actually interested in player agency are very interested in what different games can do to maximise it, and in the trade-offs that come with it. I know if you tell me that a style gives greater player agency it's a selling point - but there's a reason that compacts and pickups are more popular than sports cars even if how fast your car goes is a selling point.</blockquote>

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