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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 8162337" data-attributes="member: 6795602">Because the game isn't the sum total of establishing shared fiction about the setting and it's non-player inhabitants.It's not that the simple.&nbsp; As I said, there is a feedback loop where the PC's doing things alters the GM's separate fictional space.&nbsp; The existence of that feedback loop does give players some agency via their PC's actions.You are trying to look at a particular area and extrapolate that less agency in this area means less agency in the whole game.&nbsp; It should be obvious that such a statement isn't necessarily true and needs proven.&nbsp; It goes back to the whole focus on 0 sum games much earlier in this thread.Heck, it also brings up the questions of how do we actually measure quantity of agency - which I'll note that no one saying game X has more agency has ever actually provided a method or agreed to mine.It also brings up the question of whether measuring quantity of total agency is actually meaningful - or is it the particular kinds of agency and quantities of each kind that is meaningful.You may be right.&nbsp; I don't think either of us have conclusively proven our cases.&nbsp; But I think it's alot more complicated than you are trying to make it out to be - especially given some of the basic questions being left unanswered and the roadblocks that have been erected toward even attempting to think about the problem in terms of types/vectors of agency.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 8162337, member: 6795602"] Because the game isn't the sum total of establishing shared fiction about the setting and it's non-player inhabitants. It's not that the simple. As I said, there is a feedback loop where the PC's doing things alters the GM's separate fictional space. The existence of that feedback loop does give players some agency via their PC's actions. You are trying to look at a particular area and extrapolate that less agency in this area means less agency in the whole game. It should be obvious that such a statement isn't necessarily true and needs proven. It goes back to the whole focus on 0 sum games much earlier in this thread. Heck, it also brings up the questions of how do we actually measure quantity of agency - which I'll note that no one saying game X has more agency has ever actually provided a method or agreed to mine. It also brings up the question of whether measuring quantity of total agency is actually meaningful - or is it the particular kinds of agency and quantities of each kind that is meaningful. You may be right. I don't think either of us have conclusively proven our cases. But I think it's alot more complicated than you are trying to make it out to be - especially given some of the basic questions being left unanswered and the roadblocks that have been erected toward even attempting to think about the problem in terms of types/vectors of agency. [/QUOTE]

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