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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 8165980" data-attributes="member: 6785785">Right. I know that ultimately, all of this stuff we're talking about comes down to a matter of preference. I think some of the difficulty is in confusion about definitions and the like and the impact that has on discussion, but I think if we just try to move past that, we can start to have a bit of a discussion again (the collective we of the thread I mean, not specifically you and I).I think explaining actual processes helps to shed light on things. Lacking those, descriptions of the fiction don't really offer much. Many games could produce identical fictional results....I think the matter is how they are produced. I do think there is definite value in looking at these examples and then reflecting on our own play to see how they contrast.Right! To tie this back to my driving analogy.....the kid just brought the truck back with a missing bumper, a broken headlight, a dent in the door, and a flat tire. How likely is the GM to hand him the keys again? This is why I think examples of degenerate playing and GMing don't help. At best, they may highlight a possible weak point in a system, but generally speaking they seem to be more about trying to "win" the discussion.To kind of put that in perspective, I'm far less worried about a tyrant GM who stomps all over any decision I make and who openly shoves my PC back on the path of his plot and brags about his authority to do so......I'm far more concerned with the GM who is thoughtful and has a method, but who doesn't realize that certain decisions he makes are undermining my decisions as a player.I'm not afraid of that because it's worse.....but just because it's more common, it's harder to spot with a lot of games, and very often the GM doesn't even know they're doing it themselves.</blockquote>

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