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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Guest&nbsp; 85555" data-source="post: 8166113">I am sorry but we just have a fundamental disagreement here. And I think I explained my position clearly in my response that you quoted. If that isn't sufficient for you, it isn't sufficient for you. But even in sports, the concept of fairness is murky and contested, and people can dissect it until you get the sense that is isn't possible to achieve (especially if they hold up a ideal of it that is unattainable). There are things that a ref cannot see and sense, referees are humans not computers, and the language of rules in sports can be quite imprecise. I don't think the fact that sports often are about two competing sides, makes it all that much easier to adjudicate fairly. I completed in plenty of martial arts tournaments, and each of those had three judges scoring, and a ref, and the judges rarely had the same scores. Refs made calls that people disputed all the time. But, there were more fair and less fair referees.In terms of what fairness means for RPGs, you will never come to a universally agreed upon set of principles. Ever. Just look at the differences of opinions in this thread alone. What you will have are different criteria set up by different styles and groups (it is like having different leagues, where we agree on different rulesets and different criteria for implementing those rules).And many events that have referees and judges, are not as 'objective' as a sport like football. There are poetry contests, there are debate societies, there are art and music competitions with judges. This idea of being a fair arbiter of something exists in a lot of places, and the fact that there is no perfectly fair arbiter, doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for being fair arbiters. To toss up your hands and say 'its useless, we must simply constrain it through system', seems weird to me. Sure if you want to take a systems approach to encouraging fair arbitration in games, go for it. But that isn't for everyone or every group. And for people who don't rely on systems, well they are going to want tools and discussion on how to be a fair arbiter.</blockquote>

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