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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8166260" data-attributes="member: 16814">Of course it's done with GM permission.  The GM is presenting the fiction, according to how the GM thinks it should be, and most of it is secret until you make a move to find out.  If done "fairly", which is I believe the term, then the secret fiction is held as immutable even when it hasn't been introduced yet, so you can easily make action declarations that fail due to the GM's conception of this secret fiction.Further, actions have to meet with the GM's approval of what's possible in a given situation.  For most physical actions, this isn't doesn't usually cause much conflict because those are usually stopped by details that are described in scene setting.  However, you can easily see this phenomenon in social interactions with NPCs that have predetermined responses to certain stimuli.  We both participated in the Valaki thread about the Burgomaster, so this shouldn't be something you don't have an example of.Your 2) is an assumption -- there's no requirement to be especially principled.  Further, there's no set of requirement that this comes from to define a sandbox.  Much like your 3) implies very different sandboxes, largely where 2) doesn't particularly hold when character actions impinge on the GM's idea of what the NPC actions should conclude.Unspoken objective are unclear objectives.It really doesn't -- this is an assumption based on lack of experience.  I've played in a highly detailed and well run sandbox campaign -- it was an amazing amount of fun and the GM did a fantastic job.  We played in that world for 3 years, multiple sessions a week, many hours a session.  It was really what I cut my gaming teeth on.  And, it's nothing at all like what happens in a Story Now game as far as agency goes.AND THIS IS NOT A NEGATIVE THING!The games aim to do different things.  I think this is a key issue in these discussion -- there's an assumption that any given game is attempting to do the same thing.  They are not.  Just like Minecraft and Doom don't try to do the same thing.  This is why differences like relative player agency isn't a value statement -- it needs to be set into context.  Sandbox gaming is great, it's loads of fun, and, run well, it's near the top of "mainstream" play experiences, in my opinion.  However, it has less agency that pretty much any game based on Story Now approaches.  So what?  They're different games, so being different is fine.A sandbox can very well feature a menu of adventures.  A valid sandbox can be a town, a bit of wilderness, and a bunch of themed dungeons.  This is exactly a menu of adventures.  There's no one true sandbox.  Granted, you're making a reasonable point if you're contesting just the fact that a sandbox need not be a menu of adventures, but you aren't doing any favors by returning a "must" with a different "must."</blockquote>

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