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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 8166284" data-attributes="member: 6795602">Players don't require DM permission to do anything in a sandbox so long as they do it via their character.  It's just not true of the playstyle.And here you are conflating the action with the successfulness of that action. The player had the option of insulting the Burgomaster.  Thus the player didn't require DM permission to do that action.What we debated in that thread wasn't whether the player had the ability to choose that action, but whether the DM was "right" to have the Burgomaster react the way he did.  I think the closest to consensus that was reached was that the burgomaster as presented in the book was a very unfun obstacle and that the DM in question had picked the most plausible and most unfun reaction, while there were other plausible reactions that would have been more fun.But I'm not claiming and no one is claiming that sandboxes are the same as story now games.  All I said was that much of the same language being used to describe story now games can also apply to sandboxes. Like the concept of driving.  I detailed how players drive sandbox games.  It's not the same kind of driving present in story now games.  Which is really my point.  Driving is not a good word to differentiate story now and sandbox games because players drive both, just in different ways.There really isn't. Here's the deal.  In the context of our discussion right now, I don't care if it's a value judgement or not. 1.  I don't think Story Now has more agency according to your definition of agency.2.  I don't think you can Prove that Story Now has more agency according to your definition of agency.3.  Story Now definitely doesn't have more agency according to my definition of agency.To put this in perspective, you haven't actually defined how you measure more or less agency.  As far as I can tell there's just some vague notion that if you can show players have the ability to do something in a story now game that they don't have the ability to do in a sandbox game that this means story now has more agency.That's fair.</blockquote>

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