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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8167856" data-attributes="member: 82106">I'm not making an argument about 'immersion'. In fact it seems like I would have to take your comment as indicating that only a game which works in a certain way can achieve that, though I certainly don't think you're actually saying that. In fact, IMHO, by providing vivid and focused characterization, IMHO a game that centers on specific concerns and themes can lead to an experience in which immersion in the RP can be quite intense. Obviously this is subjective. I have heard a lot of variations of arguments that 'story games' are anti-immersive before though, its a trope, but hard to really substantiate.Yeah, my experience with this line of discussion is that nothing can really be concluded. I agree it is a creative exercise, and my observation is that the 'creativeness' is the overwhelming part, while any constraints placed by the 'reality of the setting' are basically just matters of underlying agendas. There are also genre/tone sort of factors in there. While story now certainly works fine with different tones, it is much harder to maintain the fiction of 'a place which actually existed' when the genre moves in a more fantastic direction. That is, lower level or 'lower powered' play works well in a setting like Middle Earth, where the really super fantastic stuff is a lot more abstract and is the realm of NPCs who deal largely with the concerns of immortal beings and such. The sorts of action that might happen in my 'Heroes of Myth and Legend' play doesn't usually make sense unless it is couched in terms that are PC-concern centered. When I tried to do such play with straight up D&amp;D (particularly 2e) it was not real pretty. 4e is better, but doesn't quite give the right feel for &quot;Mythic Figures&quot;, though epic tier is fairly robust in a lot of ways.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8167856, member: 82106"] I'm not making an argument about 'immersion'. In fact it seems like I would have to take your comment as indicating that only a game which works in a certain way can achieve that, though I certainly don't think you're actually saying that. In fact, IMHO, by providing vivid and focused characterization, IMHO a game that centers on specific concerns and themes can lead to an experience in which immersion in the RP can be quite intense. Obviously this is subjective. I have heard a lot of variations of arguments that 'story games' are anti-immersive before though, its a trope, but hard to really substantiate. Yeah, my experience with this line of discussion is that nothing can really be concluded. I agree it is a creative exercise, and my observation is that the 'creativeness' is the overwhelming part, while any constraints placed by the 'reality of the setting' are basically just matters of underlying agendas. There are also genre/tone sort of factors in there. While story now certainly works fine with different tones, it is much harder to maintain the fiction of 'a place which actually existed' when the genre moves in a more fantastic direction. That is, lower level or 'lower powered' play works well in a setting like Middle Earth, where the really super fantastic stuff is a lot more abstract and is the realm of NPCs who deal largely with the concerns of immortal beings and such. The sorts of action that might happen in my 'Heroes of Myth and Legend' play doesn't usually make sense unless it is couched in terms that are PC-concern centered. When I tried to do such play with straight up D&D (particularly 2e) it was not real pretty. 4e is better, but doesn't quite give the right feel for "Mythic Figures", though epic tier is fairly robust in a lot of ways. [/QUOTE]

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