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A Question Of Agency?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8173806" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p><a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/" target="_blank">Here</a> is Ron Edwards on theme/evaluative questions, contrasting "right to dream" (which he labels <em>simlationism</em>) and "story now" (which he labels <em>narrativism</em>)::</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">I also recommend examining Theme carefully. In this game [ie simulationist RPGing], it's present and accounted for already, before play. The process of prep-play-enjoy works by putting "what you want" in, then having "what you want" come out, with the hope that the System's application doesn't change anything along the way. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">In Simulationist play, morality cannot be imposed by the player or, except as the representative of the imagined world, by the GM. Theme is already part of the cosmos; it's not produced by metagame decisions. Morality, when it's involved, is "how it is" in the game-world, and even its shifts occur along defined, engine-driven parameters. The GM and players buy into this framework in order to play at all.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The point is that one can care about and enjoy complex issues, changing protagonists, and themes in both sorts of play, Narrativism and Simulationism. The difference lies in the point and contributions of literal instances of play; its operation and social feedback.</p><p></p><p>[USER=7016699]@prabe[/USER]'s game is about <em>heroes</em>. [USER=5142]@Aldarc[/USER]'s Vienna game is about (I think) <em>the meeting of different ethnicities in a pre-20th century multi-national empire</em>.</p><p></p><p>Who decides what counts as <em>heroism</em>? Who decides what counts as (say) <em>problematic ethno-nationalism?</em> If the answer is <em>the system, as adjudicated by the GM</em>, then the game falls into the category labelled by Edwards as <em>simulationism</em>. And for the game to work, the participants, and particularly the players, have to buy into that. This need not give more agency to the GM than players if the system is very clear and everyone buys in (some supers systems might be instances of this). Conversely, the more that the system manifests via GM interpretation/adjudication of GM-authored fictional starting points and background elements, then the more I would say this is giving agency to the GM <em>rather than </em>the players. (The previous two sentences contrast two broadly-described ways in which a RPG system might put "the imagined world", "the cosmos", into action.)</p><p></p><p>If the answer is<em> we work this out via play, </em>so that maybe one or more participants might get a shock, or have to change their minds, or just find themselves in disagreement with some other participant, then the game falls into the category labelled by Edwards as <em>narrativism</em>.</p><p></p><p>The relevance of social mechanics in this respect is that a major, perhaps primary, way that a system as adjudicated by a GM can reveal answers to these sorts of questions is via the social/"human-oriented" fiction that it generates. Even in D&D, where this can manifest itself through supernatural phenomena like losing access to spells, I frequently see that articulated in social terms - the Gods of Good are NPCs under the GM's control, and they don't like what the PC has done and so withhold their favour.</p><p></p><p>I don't think it's a coincidence that in Vincent Baker's systems DitV and Apocalypse World, which are self-consciously intended to be <em>narrativist</em> in Edwards's sense, allows the players to impose their vision on the human/social and hence moral world as much as on the physical/"nuts-and-bolts" world. This means that the system, as the working out of "the imagined world"/"the cosmos", won't in and of itself yield answers to the thematic/evaluative questions both games are intended to raise. There is no <em>putting "what you want" in advance of play, then having "what you want" come out simply via GM adjudication of the system</em>.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8173806, member: 42582"] [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/]Here[/url] is Ron Edwards on theme/evaluative questions, contrasting "right to dream" (which he labels [I]simlationism[/I]) and "story now" (which he labels [I]narrativism[/I]):: [indent]I also recommend examining Theme carefully. In this game [ie simulationist RPGing], it's present and accounted for already, before play. The process of prep-play-enjoy works by putting "what you want" in, then having "what you want" come out, with the hope that the System's application doesn't change anything along the way. . . . In Simulationist play, morality cannot be imposed by the player or, except as the representative of the imagined world, by the GM. Theme is already part of the cosmos; it's not produced by metagame decisions. Morality, when it's involved, is "how it is" in the game-world, and even its shifts occur along defined, engine-driven parameters. The GM and players buy into this framework in order to play at all. The point is that one can care about and enjoy complex issues, changing protagonists, and themes in both sorts of play, Narrativism and Simulationism. The difference lies in the point and contributions of literal instances of play; its operation and social feedback.[/indent] [USER=7016699]@prabe[/USER]'s game is about [I]heroes[/I]. [USER=5142]@Aldarc[/USER]'s Vienna game is about (I think) [I]the meeting of different ethnicities in a pre-20th century multi-national empire[/I]. Who decides what counts as [I]heroism[/I]? Who decides what counts as (say) [I]problematic ethno-nationalism?[/I] If the answer is [I]the system, as adjudicated by the GM[/I], then the game falls into the category labelled by Edwards as [I]simulationism[/I]. And for the game to work, the participants, and particularly the players, have to buy into that. This need not give more agency to the GM than players if the system is very clear and everyone buys in (some supers systems might be instances of this). Conversely, the more that the system manifests via GM interpretation/adjudication of GM-authored fictional starting points and background elements, then the more I would say this is giving agency to the GM [I]rather than [/I]the players. (The previous two sentences contrast two broadly-described ways in which a RPG system might put "the imagined world", "the cosmos", into action.) If the answer is[I] we work this out via play, [/I]so that maybe one or more participants might get a shock, or have to change their minds, or just find themselves in disagreement with some other participant, then the game falls into the category labelled by Edwards as [I]narrativism[/I]. The relevance of social mechanics in this respect is that a major, perhaps primary, way that a system as adjudicated by a GM can reveal answers to these sorts of questions is via the social/"human-oriented" fiction that it generates. Even in D&D, where this can manifest itself through supernatural phenomena like losing access to spells, I frequently see that articulated in social terms - the Gods of Good are NPCs under the GM's control, and they don't like what the PC has done and so withhold their favour. I don't think it's a coincidence that in Vincent Baker's systems DitV and Apocalypse World, which are self-consciously intended to be [I]narrativist[/I] in Edwards's sense, allows the players to impose their vision on the human/social and hence moral world as much as on the physical/"nuts-and-bolts" world. This means that the system, as the working out of "the imagined world"/"the cosmos", won't in and of itself yield answers to the thematic/evaluative questions both games are intended to raise. There is no [I]putting "what you want" in advance of play, then having "what you want" come out simply via GM adjudication of the system[/I]. [/QUOTE]
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