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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8177884" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>In thinking about <em>theme</em> in RPGing, I tend to start with comics (especially X-Men!), and movies that are comparable. If I run a RPG session that is (in narrative terms) half-way as compelling as an episode of Claremont X-Men I count that a success. If it even has an echo of a film like Hero or Ashes of Time I count that a triumph!</p><p></p><p>I like [USER=6785785]@hawkeyefan[/USER]'s contrast between characterisation (<em>I have a haunted past</em>) and actually engaging with a theme <em>(What will I have to do to find redemption?</em>). I think RPGing can struggle with this, especially if the model for the "adventure" starts with White Plume Mountain or the like. And the problem isn't solved by making the motivation for entering White Plume Mountain being to rescue a friend rather than recovering the stolen treasures, if the action is still just moving from room to room and dealing with the orcs or giant scorpions or whatever inhabitants are detailed in the dungeon key.</p><p></p><p>I don't know if it's true that there has to be a chance to fail. I think on that I tend to agree with [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER]. In Star Wars, for instance, I don't think we every really worry that Luke will be killed by Darth Vader, and what makes the end of Empire Strikes Back so ripe for another episode is precisely that it leaves Luke's arc unresolved. But the idea of "cost" or "loss" or "risk" seems important (and failing to realise a character's goal as a protagonist might be a special case of that). Luke loses his family; his landspeeder; his homeworld; Obi Wan; his father; his "innocence". He finds things, too, that he didn't expect - his force powers, Yoda, his father, his sister. These aren't all things that he wanted to find, either- learning that Darth Vader is his father is itself a cost at the same time as it is a source of growth and self-realisation.</p><p></p><p>How do we introduce this sort of material into a RPG? Does the player conjecture and the GM decide (say as part of consequence narration)? Does the GM decide and then the player learns via an action that obliges the GM to reveal that part of his/her notes? What is fair game to put at stake? Of RPGs I know I think Burning Wheel brings the most structure to these questions, because of its various moving parts - Beliefs, Relationships, Circles etc. But it still requires subtle judgement. Eg if I've paid build points for my PC to have a relationship with his mother, how far is the GM allowed to go in turning that against my PC's interests (say by calling for a Duel of Wits as my character's mother tries to persuade my character not to leave her again) or elaborating relevant backstory (say by introducing fiction that strongly implies that the demon-summoner Evard was my character's mother's father)?</p><p></p><p>Doing nothing of this sort means there is no struggle of the sort hawkeyefan points to - I'm just playing a guy who cares for his mum. But too much the other way and now it's the GM rather than me who's playing my character and writing his story! To move from BW to PbtA-type concepts, I think there's a lot to be said for sticking to "soft" moves in framing, and even initial consequences, and only following through with hard moves if the player keeps pushing with his/her character and fails a check - now the character has invited the foreshadowed "hard" move (it's not just that Darth is trying to trick you by declaring he's your father - <em>you've searched your feelings and you know it to be true!</em>).</p><p></p><p>This is where I find Claremont X-Men helpful as a model - individual characters have their themes and arcs even though much of the activity involves the group.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8177884, member: 42582"] In thinking about [I]theme[/I] in RPGing, I tend to start with comics (especially X-Men!), and movies that are comparable. If I run a RPG session that is (in narrative terms) half-way as compelling as an episode of Claremont X-Men I count that a success. If it even has an echo of a film like Hero or Ashes of Time I count that a triumph! I like [USER=6785785]@hawkeyefan[/USER]'s contrast between characterisation ([I]I have a haunted past[/I]) and actually engaging with a theme [I](What will I have to do to find redemption?[/I]). I think RPGing can struggle with this, especially if the model for the "adventure" starts with White Plume Mountain or the like. And the problem isn't solved by making the motivation for entering White Plume Mountain being to rescue a friend rather than recovering the stolen treasures, if the action is still just moving from room to room and dealing with the orcs or giant scorpions or whatever inhabitants are detailed in the dungeon key. I don't know if it's true that there has to be a chance to fail. I think on that I tend to agree with [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER]. In Star Wars, for instance, I don't think we every really worry that Luke will be killed by Darth Vader, and what makes the end of Empire Strikes Back so ripe for another episode is precisely that it leaves Luke's arc unresolved. But the idea of "cost" or "loss" or "risk" seems important (and failing to realise a character's goal as a protagonist might be a special case of that). Luke loses his family; his landspeeder; his homeworld; Obi Wan; his father; his "innocence". He finds things, too, that he didn't expect - his force powers, Yoda, his father, his sister. These aren't all things that he wanted to find, either- learning that Darth Vader is his father is itself a cost at the same time as it is a source of growth and self-realisation. How do we introduce this sort of material into a RPG? Does the player conjecture and the GM decide (say as part of consequence narration)? Does the GM decide and then the player learns via an action that obliges the GM to reveal that part of his/her notes? What is fair game to put at stake? Of RPGs I know I think Burning Wheel brings the most structure to these questions, because of its various moving parts - Beliefs, Relationships, Circles etc. But it still requires subtle judgement. Eg if I've paid build points for my PC to have a relationship with his mother, how far is the GM allowed to go in turning that against my PC's interests (say by calling for a Duel of Wits as my character's mother tries to persuade my character not to leave her again) or elaborating relevant backstory (say by introducing fiction that strongly implies that the demon-summoner Evard was my character's mother's father)? Doing nothing of this sort means there is no struggle of the sort hawkeyefan points to - I'm just playing a guy who cares for his mum. But too much the other way and now it's the GM rather than me who's playing my character and writing his story! To move from BW to PbtA-type concepts, I think there's a lot to be said for sticking to "soft" moves in framing, and even initial consequences, and only following through with hard moves if the player keeps pushing with his/her character and fails a check - now the character has invited the foreshadowed "hard" move (it's not just that Darth is trying to trick you by declaring he's your father - [I]you've searched your feelings and you know it to be true![/I]). This is where I find Claremont X-Men helpful as a model - individual characters have their themes and arcs even though much of the activity involves the group. [/QUOTE]
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