A Question of Ethics:

Wik

First Post
(Note: I'm not regularly much into posting personal stuff on this site. It does seem a bit angsty and dramatic at times, and I don't usually roll that way. But sometimes, you get more information from people you don't know, than people who know you and might not want to hurt your feelings, etc. And I generally respect the opinions of many people on this site, and it doesn't really hurt to use anonymous people as a sounding board, at least. But I digress.)

So, situation:

You are a male in your late twenties. You are a generally well-adjusted individual, honest, have been in a few relationships that have mostly ended amicably, and get along well with others for the most part. You have been single for approximately six months, by choice.

You have a friendship with someone you get along with amazingly. You know exactly what she's going to say before she says it, and you are always on the same wavelength. When you hang out, everyone assumes the two of you are dating (which might not be that unusual, society what it is, except EVERYONE assumes it, even people who know you well. Like your parents.) We will name this girl Leela, because she loves Futurama.

Leela, however, is engaged. She is in a long-term relationship, and is engaged primarily so she can get a visa to the United States, because apparently those things are hard to get sometimes. She is not sure this relationship is going to work out, for reasons we will not go into here, but she wants to wait until she's there in person before making a judgement call, and because despite a big mistake her fiance made, she does love the guy. After all, it's a possibility the distance between them is what caused the relationship to sour.

Of course, you have a thing for Leela. Why wouldn't you? But she is engaged, and while you have little respect for the guy (neither do any of Leela's other friends), you will not try to get her to break that engagement. You know Leela has to see this through. You just hope that it resolves well for her, even if it winds up causing you pain.

For what it's worth, Leela knows that she would be dating you if she wasn't engaged. She has told you this. The connection is really strong, and you have both discussed this (at length) and know it to be true. Leela isn't stupid, or maniuplative, or any of that crap that people on the outside might assume from reading this. But this thread isn't really about Leela. It's about you.

Anyways. You have feelings for Leela, but you know it's not going to go in the direction you want it to - not for a year at least, and possibly not ever. You don't like those odds, and you started looking around, half-heartedly. You didn't really expect it to work, and you were mostly doing it to find a way to help yourself not like Leela so much. And, let's be honest, to make Leela a little jealous, which is immature, but you're a guy, and immaturity is what comes naturally.

Anyways, you sort of accidentally found someone who has many of the things you're looking for. You get along with her well enough, although at the moment, you're in the "learning things about each other" phase, and haven't really hung out alone yet (you mostly talk via email chats, right now). We will name her Kaylee, because she likes Firefly. She's a pretty sweet girl, and you know that, if you had met Kaylee a year ago, you'd be very excited about pursuing something further with her.

However, your mind is crowded with thoughts about Leela, because, well, you've NEVER had a connection like that before. And you have had "Kaylee" level connections in the past, and some of them have been pretty nice, but they are nothing like the one you have with Leela (and had from the day you met her). Kaylee seems to like you enough the few times you've met, and is interested in maybe going on a few dates to explore your connection.

If you were to strike up a relationship with Kaylee, at the very least, it could help kill your feelings for Leela, which at this point, are not exactly something you want. They are really just counter-productive and sort of painful. It'd be much easier if you and Leela could look at each other as friends, and not as something else that isn't really in the cards right now.

Leela wants you to pursue this relationship, because she knows it'd be healthier for you, and because she thinks it might help her get rid of her own feelings for you, which are also pretty damn strong. But you think, because of your current feelings for Leela, that any relationship with Kaylee is bound to fail.

Here's the ethical question: Should you pursue something with Kaylee, even though you have very strong feelings for someone else (who also has strong feelings for you)? Is it right to go after someone only because you are unable to get to the person you'd prefer? Can you use Kaylee to get over your feelings for Leela, and if you can, under what circumstances? If you do end things with Kaylee, how should you go about doing it?

***

I'm going to give a spoiler here. This is a post about me. :) I'm thinking I need to cut off things with "Kaylee", before she gets caught in a crossfire of what is really an unfortunate love triangle. My own friends have been pretty supportive of how I've been dealing with this, and will all agree that my weird half-relationship with "Leela" is amazingly close. My mom's met her twice, and despite the messed-up nature of Leela's engagement, my mom wants her to stay around.

I can give more details if you ask, but I won't go into specifics on anybody except myself.

I maybe shouldn't have even started talking to Kaylee, but now that I have, how do I deal with it?
 

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I was in a simaler siduation about 109 years ago. I walked away, just so neither of us did any thing stupid that might cause trouble with her and her fiance'; that and she was 19 and i was 38. She actull strongly hinted at what she wanted because her Fiancee' was a jerk but it was an arranged marriage. I told her flat up that it was nothing but trouble in the making for all persons involved.

first sentence should have read:
I was in a similar situation about 10 years ago.
 
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I'll just be blunt - you likely need to drop your relationship with both girls.

You need to end it with Kaylee because right now, you're not being fair to her, and you probably can't be. Just be honest with her.

And you need to end with Leela because you're never going to get what you want from her, and going cold turkey is just about the only way to get over her so that you can have a healthy relationship with another girl in future.

I know you say that Leela isn't being manipulative. And I don't believe she is either, but she isn't going to break things off with her fiance. If she was, she would have. After all, she's got a perfectly awesome guy waiting in the wings that she says she'd be with if it weren't for the engagement. But...she doesn't want to be with you enough to break off a long distance relationship that isn't exactly going smoothly. She doesn't want to be with a stable, not-long distance guy enough that she's going to go through with the engagement just to get a visa. We're not talking about True Love here. For you two, or for her and her fiance.

(For the record, I've kinda been there. Chased a girl for the better part of two years because I was convinced we were perfect together, we had talks about how much fun we had together, how great we were together, friends and family just assumed we were dating, etc. She could never get past her on-again, off-again boyfriend long enough to be with me. She *wouldn't* get past the guy.

I was angry with her for a long time about it, but with age comes wisdom, and eventually I realized she was just as confused as I was angry, and she and I parted ways for a long time. We're both happily married to other people now, and are once again good friends.)
 


Are there benefits (you know what I mean)?

Odds are if Leela is already in a relationship with someone, just to get into the country, you are just just a way to make it faster.

Ask yourself one question; Who do you see yourself with in 25 years?
 

Some clarifications, here.

First, apparently Wik doesn't know the difference between "ethical" and "moral". ha ha, whoops!

Second...

And you need to end with Leela because you're never going to get what you want from her.

I respect the opinion here. And we have discussed doing this. However.... while I do like the idea of there being more, I will take her as a friend. Also, to be annoyingly vague, we both get a lot out of the friendship that neither of us want to risk losing. Basically, I have never had a friendship like this. My level of anxiety has dropped a bajillion points since Leela's been around.

I know you say that Leela isn't being manipulative. And I don't believe she is either, but she isn't going to break things off with her fiance.

Yeah. She is pretty confused by the whole situation. Honestly, my ideal scenario would be to have her visit her Fiance (or have him visit - though he really doesn't like me much, even though he's never met me, and the feeling is quite mutual), and work out her feelings either way. However, she cannot afford to go south again anytime soon (she's saving up to move permanently, all for this guy), and he apparently can't be bothered to come up here (he's telling her it takes three months, at least, for him to get his passport renewed. Yet... he got a new one less than two years ago to see her the first time... and I know it takes a helluva lot less time to get one up here, so....).

She doesn't want to be with a stable, not-long distance guy enough that she's going to go through with the engagement just to get a visa.

0I may have made a mistake in how I explained that, ha ha. She is getting the visa so she can not be long distance. The thing is, she can't stay in the US for more than a few weeks at a time, without getting a visa, so she can't pursue a real relationship with the guy. So, she's engaged so that she can get the visa, so she can be live with him. If he wasn't around, there'd be no Visa, and she'd still be here.

This isn't a russian bride scenario.

Anyways, thanks for your opinions on this, and I appreciate the insights. This is why I was posting the thread. :) But I think I'm stuck riding this "Leela" wave until I crash into the shore, one way or another. :P

Diamond Cross said:
Somebody watches too much Firefly and Futurama.

You say that like it's a bad thing. ;)

Hand of Evil said:
Are there benefits (you know what I mean)?

Odds are if Leela is already in a relationship with someone, just to get into the country, you are just just a way to make it faster.

Ask yourself one question; Who do you see yourself with in 25 years?

Well, there are plenty of benefits, but the benefits that you're talking about? No. There have been opportunities, but they never happened because we both know that'd be a very bad idea. And I really doubt either of us will slip - there have been situations where it would have been pretty easy for it to happen, but we didn't do it. We're both pretty good people, after all.

But she's not in a relationship just to get into the country. She's engaged so that she can get a visa into the united states (from Canada) so she can spend more than a few weeks in one stretch with a guy. She wants to give this relationship one more try, to see if it works. Basically, give it "the ol' college try" before calling it quits for good.

As for where I see myself in 25 years? I have no bloody clue. I can tell you where I'd like to be in 25 years, no problem, but where I actually see myself? No clue.
 

Tough call but in the spirit of comment - emphatically not advice:

Like wait around playing Moonlighting on a dangling thread for Ms Complications - who's happy enough to hand you off for your own good.

Or "met Kaylee a year ago, . . . be very excited about pursuing something further with her".

Obviously, you need to lose Kaylee immediately. She'd be an emotional nightmare, who'd never get your Mum's executive approval.

Just PM her number over to me and I'll break the news to her for you. I'll be kind - give her a shoulder to cry on, then maybe an Italian restaurant . . . :p
 

If you were to strike up a relationship with Kaylee, at the very least, it could help kill your feelings for Leela

Here's the problem: No, a relationship with Kaylee will *not* kill feelings for Leela. In my observation, that's not the way the heart works.

The rest follows from that point - if you take up with Kaylee while you still have such strong feelings for Leela, you're setting yourself up to hurt people, including yoruself.
 

Leela seems to be unmarried. So do you. What seems to be the problem. You don't care about the guy she's "with" right now, and you want her. He is a non-entity, in this circumstance. Unless she would never dump him to be with you, in which case he is the most important person in her life, and you should not interfere. If he cheated, he doesn't deserve her, anymore.
The only real questions you should be asking are: Do the two of you want to be together? Is she willing to start something with you? Is this girl, Kaylee really Somebody to you, or is she just a bit of spite you happened onto who happens to be a decent person, also?
Until you figure out what you actually want, you cannot proceed.
Once you do that, find out what she really wants, and then proceed from there.
Incidentally, Kaylee is only going to get hurt in this situation if you don't settle with Leela, first.
 

I agree with papastebu. Of course, I'm the type of person that always goes after what I want...and a little thing like an engagement probably wouldn't scare me off, especially if the bond between said girl and I is as strong as you are making it sound. After all, all is fair in love and war.
 

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