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Message: <blockquote data-quote="firesnakearies" data-source="post: 5192168" data-attributes="member: 71334">So, I just did some digging in the Compendium, and some math.  I've concluded that the expertise feats are unnecessary, and that the whole "oh noes the math makes it impossible to hit at high level!" idea is a bunch of jive.My level 24 Dwarf Warden who is currently playing through E2 Kingdom of the Ghouls has a +29 to hit versus AC or a +30 versus Fortitude with his at-wills.  He has two points less Strength than a character could have at his level, and is using a hammer, which is a +2 proficiency weapon instead of a +3.  He does have the expertise feat.  Still though, if he was a Fighter of a Strength race using a sword, he'd have +3 more to hit than he does.Oh, and he could have a +6 weapon now instead of a +5, if I wanted, so that'd be +4 more to hit.The above numbers are "all the time", totally unbuffed, no power bonuses, no combat advantage or anything else added in.I went through all 89 creatures in the Compendium of 24th level.  Minions, elites, solos, of all roles and from all sources.  I figured out what I'd need to hit each of them.Of those 89 24th-level enemies, there were...Average roll I'd need on the die, no buffs or combat advantage involved, is...6.4!64 out of 89 creatures of my level, I hit on a natural 7 or less.  Without combat advantage.  Without bonuses of any kind applied.  Without max Strength, or a class attack bonus, or an accurate weapon type.If my character was an "optimized hitter", that would be 2.4 on average.  With combat advantage (which I might add I have very, very often at this level), I'd be hitting nearly anything my level on a natural 2 or higher.So, take my 6.4 average needed hit roll, and subtract that expertise feat.  Oh no, how will I hit anything now?  I need to roll an average of 8.4!  Even fighting things two levels higher than me, I've still got a great chance to hit at an average of 10.4, with no expertise.  This is at epic level, folks.(Furthermore, we're absolutely stomping all over everything with virtually no sense of challenge at all.  We completely dominated Death's Reach, it was ridiculous.  So frankly, I think the game might have been a bit better if we hadn't had the expertise feats, and would have missed a few more times.  It still would have been a cakewalk.)I think the expertise feats are fine.  I think that house-ruling to give players bonuses to hit is also fine.  More hitting is good, no player's going to argue with that.  I'm a generous sort of DM, myself, so I'd be inclined to offer such a benefit to my players, for the sake of fun and letting people feel cool more often.  But necessary?  A "feat tax" that must be paid in order to make the game work?No.  That's just not true.  Don't believe the hype.</blockquote>

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