A radical concept?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I just had a "crazy" idea. What if a Rogue, instead of skill points, simply got +1 rank in every single skill in the game with each Rogue level?

Class skills would remain the same, so he wouldn't get the +3 bonus on everything wthout feats/traits/multiclassing. And the "Rogue ranks," while functioning in every way like normal skill ranks invested, would overlap with other ranks (if you're multiclassed), so those dipping rogue could not use this to top off on their maxed skill ranks, just...get a whole lot of "1 point wonders," I guess.

This way, Rogue actually IS decent at every skill. Also, it could be a good first step towards changing all the int-based talents to cha-based, merging Rogue and Ninja into one, and making int lower priority so the class is effectively a dex-cha-con class.

Rogue still needs more buffs to be decent, like a good base will save (so wis can be less important), the return of 3E tumble DCs, etc... But this could be a good step into restoring them as the definitive skill monkey class.

Thoughts?

 

[Systole]

An interesting concept, but I have to vote no. The first issue is that it seems odd that rogues would get Spellcraft and some of the more esoteric knowledges. Bards have a reason to be skillmonkeys, because their schtick is that they learn little bits of everything. Rogues ... not so much. That's my take on it, anyway.

The second and more important reason is that the issues with rogues aren't really solved by skill points. I would much rather give rogues full BAB than extra skill points.

 

[Ahnehnois]

IME, the average rogue has ranks in every skill the player will think to use anyway. The only effect of this change would be to encourage rogues to dump Int (and shouldn't rogues be smart?). Rogue players are also typically people who like selecting skills and parsing out their ranks in detail rather than being handed a finished character. I think the better move would be to give more skill points overall (background skills, or upping rogues to 10, etc.). I also think it's important for a rogue's ceiling to be higher, so more skill bonus/new uses for skills helps.

I do support improving the rogue's saves, which is why I started using medium saves. I also made "trap sense" a +1 bonus to saves against a variety of choices, one of them being mind-affecting.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Main motivation for this is to help "spy" and "con man" type rogues, whose line of work often requires being able to be good at some strange, esoteric, or obscure skill, or faking it well enough, in order to maintain their cover / get others to trust their "expertise," and so forth. With 8 + Int skill points, rogue already will have all the "optimal" skills maxed if he wants, this lets him be competent at lesser things, like the one time in the whole campaign Profession: "Seige Engineer" or "Hibachi chef" is important.

It also means he is the default backup when the party needs a skill check and no one else has it, or when the primary person is indisposed or rolls badly. I see these as good things.

 

[Epametheus]

The rogue actually having full ranks in every single craft, profession, and knowledge skill feels wonky as all get out.

I actually like that rogues are encouraged to be smart, but I suppose that could work?

I think master spy had a mechanic for the spy being treated as having ranks = to 1/2 spy level for faking knowing how to do something.

A rogue might reasonably pick that up with a master talent... Or a more focused version from a normal talent.

But every single rogue being Jared from The Pretender really doesn't feel right.

 

[Epametheus]

Double post, can't seem to delete.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, first of all, i have to say...the Spy Master PrC sucks. Like, it really really sucks. Also, why should a Rogue need a PrC at all for that? Almost any kind of Rogue is going to need to pull some random expertise out of his ass at some point.

I kind of like smart rogues, too, but the class is ridiculously MAD, and I'l like to reduce their number of needed ability scores to 3. Even with this, a rogue won't want a negative int -- int adds to quite alot of skills. He just won't need much of a bonus, if any.

It may be wonky, but is it really any more wonky than lots of other game mechanics, like a bard using perform in place of other skills, or any of the rounds/day abilities? Basically, with this houserule, a Rogue in the game becomes a skill master, able to pick up any trade or expertise and perform reasonably well at it. It feels not so wonky to me...


But if everyone's against all skills at max ranks, how about this instead? I still like my original idea, but how about:

Instant Master (Ex): A Rogue is a paragon of quick thinking, resourcefulness, and deception. As a free action, a Rogue may designate a skill or skills and gain a bonus on all checks with the skill(s) equal to his Rogue level and is treated as trained in that skill, even if he has no actual ranks. This ability lasts for 1 minute per Rogue level, or 24 hours if used on a Craft, Knowledge, Perform, or Profession skill. A Rogue may use this ability once per day at 1st level, and an additional time per day for every two rogue levels thereafter (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc...).

 

[Epametheus]

Ok, first of all, i have to say...the Spy Master PrC sucks. Like, it really really sucks.

Oh, agreed; just using it as a point of reference after you mentioned the con artist bit.

But if everyone's against all skills at max ranks, how about this instead? I still like my original idea, but how about:

Instant Master (Ex): A Rogue is a paragon of quick thinking, resourcefulness, and deception. As a free action, a Rogue may designate a skill or skills and gain a bonus on all checks with the skill(s) equal to his Rogue level and is treated as trained in that skill, even if he has no actual ranks. This ability lasts for 1 minute per Rogue level, or 24 hours if used on a Craft, Knowledge, Perform, or Profession skill. A Rogue may use this ability once per day at 1st level, and an additional time per day for every two rogue levels thereafter (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc...).

Now that's more like it. Less "I'm fully trained and educated in more things than most gods" and more "It's cool, I've got it covered." I'd probably make it a talent instead of something all rogues get. It'd be pretty damn good for a talent, but that way at least there's an opportunity cost to the thing.

 

[tylermalan]

I just want to organize the thoughts I'm having, and then ask a question at the end.

A rogue needs...

...strength to do more damage.
...dexterity to sneak.
...constitution so he doesn't get crushed in melee range for backstab.
...intelligence for more skills.
...wisdom because he has bad will saves.
...charisma so he can talk to people.

And so, is the primary desire around this suggested change essentially to remove intelligence as a needed stat?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Remove int as a needed stat, and establish rogue class as the king of skills. That was the intent of the original idea, yes. Removing int as a needed stat would also be handy for merging Rogue and Ninja and not needing all 6 stats, as I'm convinced you could combine the two classes and it'd still be one of the weakest classes in the game.

So, make everything cha-based, gets trapfinding and poison use, trapsense and...that stupid stealth bonus if still thingy, evasion and ki pool, etc... And can freely choose between ninja tricks and rogue talents at every 2 levels. Add good will saves and some other needed fixes, and ideally it ends up being a Dex, Cha, and Con class primarily.

But not a single person, even my friends, liked the first idea. And ultimately the biggest thing I wanted to accomplish was give rogue a purpose on the skills front, so...bam, 2nd idea! Bard gets full CL spellcasting and party buffs, IMO Rogue should be the undeniable "skills master" and "jack of all trades" class. I really don't like the PF and 4E focus towards DPS / flanking melee sneak attack. That can be a part of the class, but it really disheartens me when I ask people what exactly rogue is supposed to be good at and the first answer is "high single target damage."