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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 5450979" data-attributes="member: 59082">This is simply wrong. Saying something is not as popular as it could be has absolutely nothing to do with its merits or lack thereof, nor is it in any way an insult towards those that support the game. I am not sure where the "cheap shot" is by saying what I'm saying. I think you're missing what I am saying, Danny. It is not the setting support itself as a sales driver that I am talking about, and in a sense it doesn't matter whether people in this thread say that setting support is or is not a factor in their interest in 4E. I'm talking about something else, something a bit more subtle than the degree to which setting support is important to someone.To try another angle at expressing what I'm trying to get at, let's look at Dragonmagazine. Dragon was almost certainly not very profitable (which is likely why they shelved it), yet it had what I am calling a secondary or tertiary impact on sales, as well as the health and vitality of the game. The idea being that you produce a product that doesn't in itself generate much profit, but supports the rest of the line in making more profit. I'm saying that setting support is much the same. Having an ongoing, supported setting gives the game a place where its ideas and concepts can become embodied. It is an opportunity for WotC to say, "This is how we envision 4E."What I hear people disagreeing with is not really what I'm talking about. I am not talking about the direct and obvious impact of setting support on sales and the game's popularity (this is what I'd call "primary" impact), but the in-direct and subtle impact that setting support has on the game by making it come alive, which in turn influences the game's popularity and overall sales.Interesting point. I think of all of the adventures that TSR published at this time, that served a similar purpose to what I'm talking about - making the game come alive through story. Early D&D and AD&D didn't have much in the way of setting support, but they did have tons of adventures. Later on in 2E it was both adventures but especially settings, and then in 3E the adventures waned but there were a few settings that were strongly supported. 4E has neither - there are few adventures and weak setting support, and thus no real way to bring the game to life in the way that I'm talking about.Yes, exactly - and in some sense what I am saying is that we need more Nentir Vale. Pemerton mentioned Worlds & Monsters which, strangely enough, is the closest thing to a 4E default setting book. My opinion is that they should have gone further with this. Actually, it may have been much wiser to have shelved the Forgotten Realms treatment and just gone with Nentir Vale from the get-go. They would have avoided the collateral damage from glutting a well-loved classic fantasy setting and they could have explicated similar themes in a new setting more clearly, and without the distraction of the Simbul's corpse.As I've been saying, my view is that the impact of a setting like Golarion is subtle and hard to track. It isn't just how many books the Chronicles series sells - I can't imagine that City of Strangers was a big cash-cow for Paizo, but I don't think that's the point. I think the point of having and supporting a setting like Golarion is to bring a kind of life and vitality to the game, to bring it alive. Even if the APs seem like they could be in any setting they all still arise within the same world; Golarion provides a living, breathing back-drop for not only the APs but the elements of the core game itself, whether the monster fluff of the Bestiary or the classes of the Advanced Player's Guide or the GM advice in the Gamemastery Guide. In some sense I'm talking about something similar to cross-training. Going for a walk is good for you, it has a positive impact on your physical health, but it also impacts other aspects of your life. This, again, is the difference between "primary" and "secondary" impact. The primary impact is the benefit to one's cardiovascular health. The secondary impact might be the benefit one's psychological health, or the creative inspiration that many get from going for walks. Or it might impact other aspects of one's life; let's say you go for a walk with your significant other - it has a positive impact on your relationship.So my view is that if we only look at the primary impact of carrying a given product, we lose sight of the big picture and we limit ourselves to the "bottom line" - how much profit this product generates on its own. With both setting support and Dragon magazine, WotC has really missed the boat, imo.Interesting points - I like what you say here. In some ways it seems that 4E advocates a sandbox approach to the game, yet doesn't offer enough tools and support for running a sandbox-style game. So in the end 4E has been in a kind of in-between state, between its original "points of light" sandbox approach and its half-baked settings.See, I don't see why they can't do both - advocate a sandbox approach, provide support for running a sandbox game, but also create and support and ongoing setting (like Nentir Vale). Now what might have been really interesting is if they had developed and published the Nentir Vale in a similar fashion as a sandbox setting is developed. There wouldn't have been a world map and a general outline of the world, at least not at first, but instead it would have been developed piecemeal. Maybe first a Nentir Vale Gazetteer, then further gazetteers on the bordering lands and a gradual exploration of the world outward.</blockquote>

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