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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 5454664" data-attributes="member: 59082">True - and I've tried to clarify that I don't have a problem with the statement "4E isn't D&D to me," although I find it to be both problematic and, as Abezanzorax said, lacking a certain degree of sophistication. In other words, unpack that sentiment a bit. And try to differentiate fully what is your own and what is not. On the other hand, I think it is OK to debate opinions, otherwise we end up in weird little Citadels of Subjective Impenetrability - as if by stating that something is one's own opinion it becomes impervious from criticism. If I go around saying "Aboriginal Australians aren't real human beings to me" I would hope that someone would call me on my "opinion." (Now of course I'm not equating the two statements but using an extreme example to illustrate my point).Uh, I just said the exact same thing - that I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that "4E isn't real D&D." Way to followup up there, Danny <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm    :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" />. That said, some have come awfully close.? I think you're reading more emotionality than was there, shadzar. Or, as the saying goes, making titans out of titmouses <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Are you saying that there are no common, interpersonal understandings and agreements that we can fall back upon? I mean, can we at least use the dictionary as a general agreement?As somebody pointed out, I think if you're having a conversation with someone who refuses to recognize 4E as a form of D&D then it is probably just best to move along. That sort of willful negation of something that has a pretty weighty body of objective evidence probably speaks of some kind of psychological hang-up. I agree that a lot of time gets wasted on these little side issues and prevents us from going into more meaningful territory. That said, your example of milk is an apt one because it well illustrates why saying 4E is not D&D is, at the least, a highly problematic statement, and more realistically, simply an erroneous statement. There are a few definitions of the word <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/milk" target="_blank">"Milk"</a> via Dictionary.com and by saying that soy milk is not milk then you are saying that the first two definitions are right and the third is wrong. This, I think, well illustrates the question of whether 4E is D&D or not - those that see it as not D&D are choosing to ignore or disagree with one or more definitions. This is why I think Dannager was calling that perspective close-minded: it is consciously choosing to ignore or disagree a broader umbrella of the term.Umm...who needs the sedative, shadzar? No one is telling you what you "Damn well better do". Relax. I don't care about changing your mind. But in the context of this thread, we're disagreeing. In the 12,457,546,133,343,337 internet debates to date, only in 0.000472% of them has someone actually changed their mind, because very few people are ever willing to admit that they're wrong or limited in their perspective. I don't expect this conversation to be any different. In the end, all of us are limited in our perspective and a good reason to engage in these sorts of conversations is to find ways to become less limited, to open and evolve our perspective. But anyhow, no harm, no foul, OK? We're all dice-rollers after all <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Well yeah, in the larger sense all definitions are inherently muddy, with permeable edges. Not to mention that words can be used poetically, with metaphoric or symbolic meanings. In the example cited by shadzar, the word milk can mean the elixir of life, the essence of a mother's love. There is also the simple, practical level of utility - what does a word mean in a practical sense. Etc.Yeah, it is a fair statement but more importantly, it is a kind and generous one. Why? Because you are included 4E within, to quote Meet the Parents, the "circle of trust" that is the D&D family. 4E may be the black sheep to you, but you are saying that it is still part of the family. And to be honest, I agree and feel similar - although to a lesser degree. 4E feels like D&D to me partially because I make it feel like D&D. I think that is a key component that hasn't been really touched upon in these conversations - the fact that what D&D is, and what feels like D&D, is at least partially (I would say largely) dependent upon our conscious choice, whether and how we decide to make it D&D, make it our own.</blockquote>

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