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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5454846" data-attributes="member: 957">But you absolutely 100% need the fictional elements beforehand.  Obviously, we completely disagree on that.  But that is because we are describing radically different gaming experiences.  If we wanted to obtain the type of experience you are content with, then yeah, neither of us would need it.  But if you wanted to experience the type of game play I desire, then you also need it.I hear a lot of talk about all the "work" that 3E is.  For me, back when I played AD&D, and when I moved on to GURPS and other games, and then under 3E, I've always spent more time doing things away from the table.  But the word "work" is absolutely the wrong word for it.  I love doing it.  It is great fun.And I'll readily admit that sometimes I spend a chunk of time on something that only shows up for 2 minutes, and sometimes I spend a chunk of time on something that never actually shows up.  Sometimes I am suprised at how little time something sees, and sometimes I knew all along and just did it for the fun of it.  And that last is really very common.I completely, absolutely, disagree that it is a point of distinction.  And here is why, I do everything you have described, on the fly, all the time in my 3E games.It is almost bothersome to me that your post presumes these are distinctions for your 4E over my 3E game.  Partly because you seem to think I don't do them and partly because it surprising to me to hear people talk about these as something new they have gained in 4E.If it IS a point of distinction for YOU, then I'm glad that your got a game that helps.  But I feel sorry you have missed out on it before now.Be it coming up with the details of a specific encounter or projected the plot of the story into a new direction, change will happen at the table.  And I roll with it.  Tabletop RPG playing has (a lot) more than one fun element.  World building and creation is one, but the fun of rolling with the unexpected changes players bring, in real time, is also another one.But I do all this "just in time".  Now, I do have details already in mind that the new details need to not contradict.  But that is part of the fun.  And it is a "challenge", but a very fun one.  And, bottom line, I've asked my players before after some sessions if they can tell which parts were planned and which were on the fly.  They almost always say they are surprised that any of it was on the fly.Yes, 4E is better at on the fly stuff. But improving 1 second to 1/2 second is not value added to me.  And that improvement comes with loads of gamist compromises that do distinctly detract from the fun of the experience.Clearly we agree that something didn't go according to plan and 4E is not a hit with as many people as would have been hoped.  This exact point of discussion is not "the reason".  But it is part of the overall package deal of why it is that way.For many people it "feels like a tactical mini game".  While I agree that you can roleplay on top of the rules, I also agree that it, relatively speaking, feels more like a tactical mini game.  And if the things you have described are really new additions that 4E offers you, then those of us already having these things in 3E are not going to see new value, but we are going to see the prices which have been paid.</blockquote>

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