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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5461126" data-attributes="member: 42582">For me this is not a peripheral point but the key point.&nbsp;In Planescape, it is the moral/thematic landscape that is someone else's conception. Compare that to the Game of Making in The Plane Above - it is clearly left up to the players to decide what they think of Erathis's view that even evil things have to be made, and up to the players to decide whether Pelor's circumspection about the game is a misjudgement or not.A related but important point here is 4e's approach to alignment and divine PCs (namely, a non-punitive one).But they only come into play if the player chooses. And the player chooses what to make of them. This is the difference from Immortals.Yes and know. Unlike Issaries, WotC has big commercial aspirations. So instead of the free description of HeroQuest, they just publish huge lists of thematically compelling elements, and let the players buy them and choose one. There are a lot of Epic Destinies out there.I agree with you that HeroQuest is, ultimately, probably a better narrativist gaming system. But 4e is much closer to that than to Planescape, in my view.Well, I've tried in this post, and upthread, and also last year in <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/276878-plane-above-glorantha-fication-d-d.html" target="_blank">this thread</a>.Now I don't agree with this either, but I'll readily concede that this is just in the realm of taste. I personally find that, for my group and our preferences (and we're not averse to a bit of crunch with our combats), 4e delivers a pretty epic combat experience.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5461126, member: 42582"] For me this is not a peripheral point but the key point. In Planescape, it is the [I]moral/thematic[/I] landscape that is someone else's conception. Compare that to the Game of Making in The Plane Above - it is clearly left [I]up to the players[/I] to decide what they think of Erathis's view that even evil things have to be made, and [I]up to the players[/I] to decide whether Pelor's circumspection about the game is a misjudgement or not. A related but important point here is 4e's approach to alignment and divine PCs (namely, a non-punitive one). But they [I]only come into play[/I] if the player chooses. And the player chooses what to make of them. This is the difference from Immortals. Yes and know. Unlike Issaries, WotC has big commercial aspirations. So instead of the free description of HeroQuest, they just [I]publish huge lists of thematically compelling elements, and let the players buy them and choose one[/I]. There are a lot of Epic Destinies out there. I agree with you that HeroQuest is, ultimately, probably a better narrativist gaming system. But 4e is much closer to that than to Planescape, in my view. Well, I've tried in this post, and upthread, and also last year in [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/276878-plane-above-glorantha-fication-d-d.html]this thread[/url]. Now I don't agree with this either, but I'll readily concede that this is just in the realm of taste. I personally find that, for my group and our preferences (and we're not averse to a bit of crunch with our combats), 4e delivers a pretty epic combat experience. [/QUOTE]

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