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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 5461391" data-attributes="member: 48965">And yet I haven't seen you express how Planescape is any more limiting in the moral themes that can be explored than any other setting including a homebrew... especially if the exploration takes place through the actions of the PC's. I mean Planescape is a meta-setting that theoretically includes everything in creation... including a multitude of worlds all of which can be used as tools by the DM and players to explore nearly unlimited moral themes.   Huh? The moral/thematic landscape in Planescape is their to be shaped, explored and changed by your characters just like that found in The Plane Above or any other setting. But then I have to ask... what good setting doesn't have it's own moral/thematic concepts? It seems to me your problem would be with any setting as opposed to the rules system since you can use the 3.5 Manual of the Planes to create your own moral/thematic planar landscape. however I think that a starting point (and again the very assumptions in any version of the core rules sets at least some of these) in no way stops a PC from exploring his own beliefs and ideas within the context of the game.  How does this in any way better enable the exploration, shaping and creation of a moral/thematic landscape?  If anything, I feel 4e's "Look Ma, no consequences!" approach moreso facilitates the glossing over and ignoring of morality and it's associated themes in the game, as it doesn't in any way have cons and pros for one's choice. A total rat bastard can command the powers of Bahamut and a saint can pray to Vecna for enlightenment...and there are no consequences or benefits for such... beyond what particular powers one gains access to.  Personally I find a certain disonance with this and the high fantasy/mythic feel I think D&D 4e has tried to remake itself with. In fact I would argue 4e might as well have just kept Unaligned (The do what I want alignment) and been done with it as the Most evil-> slightly less evil->Do what I want->slightly less good->Most good axis seems pointless if none of it ultimately means anything. I feel that ultimately, just like in every previous edition, we the Players and DM will have to decide what exactly these alignments mean... it's just that in 4e (at least IMO) it's not even worth the effort as the decision doesn't affect anything in game.  And immortality only comes into play if the PC seeks it out... and just like selecting an epic destiny... the PC in BECMI must discover and choose one of the paths to immortality... also, instead of just picking a mandatory epic destiny because he is a certain level, the PC must perform quests and tasks in order to gain immortality (Which are actually given guidelines in the books and to me is much more in line with a mythic feel). I guess I'm still not seeing how 4e's ED's are in any way better at this than BECMI's immortals.  Sooo, like I said in an earlier post... ED's are just souped up paragon paths... packaged destinies that really don't inherently allow anymore freedom for definition in and of themselves for PC's but instead are only as diverse as your spending budget will allow.  I touched on this above but again it seems this is because 4e is a system and Planescape is a setting. You're comparing apples and oranges. Again a better comparison is BECMI's immortal rules or 3.X's Epic Levels & Manual of the Planes.  I will go back and read these so that I can perhaps get a better understanding of what makes 4e a better game at hero-questing than any other edition of D&D.  I would say a game like Heroquest, Legends of Anglerre... or for more crunch... Exalted, Earthdawn and a few others offer a much better Mythic/hero combat experience without getting bogged down in the tactical skirmish nature of D&D 4e's combat. But I digress, this is mostly about feel and I agree with different strokes for different folks. SIDE NOTE ON COMBAT:  To further expound I feel that the grid can become a limitation and hinderance to the types of combat and landscapes of battles once PC's reach a point unto godhood, but that's just my oppinion.</blockquote>

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