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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Patryn of Elvenshae" data-source="post: 5464003" data-attributes="member: 23094">These things are absolutely not true in 4E.If an "ordinary orc" in 3E is an Orc War 1 (and not the elite deathsquad Orc Fighter 8s that your DM has been pitting you against this adventure because you outgrew the War 1s, even though they're legal), then, by extension, you must admit that an "ordinary orc" in 4E is some flavor of orc minion X (or Soldier X). [EDIT: See Neonchameleon's post below, where he access to the actual rulebook rather than my misremembered numbers.  Regardless of the specifics, the point, I think, stands.]Elsewise, you're just arguing that a less-complete Monseter Manual is some form of system benefit (since, plainly, 3E is built under the assumption that your DM can and will, at some point, make Orc Fighter Xs, etc.).Similarly, a secure but ordinary lock is something that'll be challenging to, what, a 1st-to-5th-level character trained in thievery, but easy for a master locksmith to bypass?  That tells you what the DC is.What 4th Edition does, however, is readily admit that, at some point, you will no longer be fighting "ordinary orcs" and picking "secure but ordinary locks" - just like, in 3E, you eventually stop fighting Orc 1s as part of meaningful combat encounters; you fight ogres and trolls, instead, or leveled orcs.  Similarly, there's no need to waste time wondering whether or not you can pick the lock on the inn's kitchen cupboard; instead, you wonder whether or not you can bypass the Moonlock in the Temple of Eternal Shadows.There is no meaningful difference in the systems here; other than 4E has a better ... DC progression ... in that they don't arbitrarily move in 5-point increments and stop at DC 40.I mean, when you come right down to it, the 3E DCs for standard locks are:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Simple (DC 20):<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Anyone with any training and the right tools (net +0 bonus) can do this with time;</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A skilled novice (net +5 bonus) can pull it off about 25% of the time in 6 seconds under pressure</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A journeyman (net +10 bonus) can pull it off 100% of the time in 6 second when not under pressure, and about 50% of the time when under pressure</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A master (net +20 bonus) can always pull this off in 6 seconds, even under pressure</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Average (DC 25)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A skilled novice can pull this off with time</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A journeyman can pull it off about 25% of the time in 6 seconds under pressure</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A master can pull it off 100% of the time in 6 seconds when not under pressure, and about 75% of the time when under pressure</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Good (DC 30)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A journeyman can pull this off with time</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A master can pull it off 100% of the time in 6 seconds when not under pressure, and about 50% of the time when under pressure</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Superior (DC 40)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A master can pull this off with time</li> </ul></li> </ol>Succinctly, secure, ordinary locks ("Average") are not even a barrier at all to anyone properly prepared, except when under extreme time pressure - and to anyone sufficiently skilled, they aren't even that.This holds true in 4E as well - it's just that the rules encourage you to ignore or hand-wave the secure, ordinary lock when running skill challenges at higher levels; either they don't exist in that particular area, or bypassing them is so trivial as to not make a difference in the skill challenge's outcome.Which, let's face it, is an awful lot like the way it works in 3E, as well - either the lock on the door is hard for your level, and requires you to roll against it or Take 20, or you're high level and it's relatively easy, and you can Take 1 to bypass it (in which case, did it matter whether or not it was there?).If the problem is, "Well, my players hit 10th-level; where did all the Average locks go?" the problem is one of GM description; merely mention that, while breaking into X, the PCs bypassed multiple locks that were child's play to them, and now they're at the difficult, make-or-break lock.</blockquote>

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