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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5465110" data-attributes="member: 61155">I can't really argue with that. I think we're arguing for the same thing here, and I guess what I'm trying to say is that the scaling DCs of 4E are built to be able to be used in exactly that fashion - even if there are those who don't use them that way. And, instead, just scale them to the characters directly.   Yeah, that was part of what I was saying - there is definite a misperception that the DCs are connected to the characters. I think the intent - and they way I use them - is to scale them to the challenge. You don't pick a DC in relation to the PC rogue, you pick a DC in relation to the lock.  Now, most times, those two are relatively connected - your Paragon rogue probably is trying to break into the king's vault, not into some commoner's house or into Ioun's Library. But you still have those DCs if, for whatever reason, the PC goes after such places.  If there is a conditioning in effect, I think it is an unintentional one. And that may well be a problem nonetheless - but I don't think this method of use is the intent of the rules in any way.    The problem is in locks already start at 20gp. That's out of range for many commoners anyway. Once you get into those who can afford that lock - how big a jump is it to the more expensive ones? I mean, we're talking something in the same price range as chainmail, an everburning torch, etc. Beyond the first level or two, how many times will the PCs be trying to break into a place where it wouldn't be appropriate for the person to use a superior lock, strictly based on the price?  I admit, this is somewhat of a tangent, and more tied into 3rd Edition's pricing of a random item on the equipment list than any instrinstic element of the system. And yet, I think this is somewhat the goal of 4E's abstraction of DCs, to avoid having different warring details lead to such inconsistencies. That doesn't necessarily make it the better approach, but I do like having it as an option.  Ideally, we have both - scaling DCs to easily use when desired, plus hard numbers for when appropriate.   I just don't quite see that as true. Nothing stops me in 4E from having encounters and challenges of different levels. Abstracting the reasons for the DCs doesn't prevent me from still have status quo situations - the fact I look on a chart instead of an equipment table to determine the DC of the king's chamber doesn't mean it automatically becomes a 'reasonable' challenge for level 2 PCs unless I decide it should be.</blockquote>

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