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Message: <blockquote data-quote="airwalkrr" data-source="post: 2944759" data-attributes="member: 12460">Many people think there are problems with the CR system and I agree. This thread is the first step in an approach to try to remedy the situation, although this is not a house rule thread per se, which is why I put it in D&D Rules. This is a discussion of the rules, its flaws and merits, as well as things that should be changed for the better. I present the following points regarding the existing CR system as I see it which are relavant to this conversation. Tell me whether you agree or disagree.-Each monster or NPC typically has one basic function: battler, ambusher, magic user, special attack user, multiple threat.-Monsters with levels in a PC class whose specialty falls outside the monster's basic fuction is usually subject to non-associated class levels.-A level in a PC class is typically inherently better than progressing by Hit Dice.These things in mind, observe the following exercise, which is an example of a typical D&D monster alongside a typical NPC fighter. Both are allegedly the same CR.Tordek, 7th Level    CR 7Male dwarf fighter 7LG Medium humanoid (dwarf)Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Spot +1, Listen +1Languages Common, DwarvenAC 22, touch 11, flat-footed 21; Dodgehp 59 (7 HD)Resist stability (+4 against bull rush and trip)Fort +9 (+11 against poison), Ref +4, Will +6; +2 on saves against spells and spell-like effectsSpd 20 ft. (4 squares)Melee +1 dwarven waraxe +12/+7 (1d10+6/x3)Ranged mwk composite longbow +9/+4 (1d8+3/x3)Base Atk +7; Grp +10Atk Options +1 on attacks against orcs and goblins, Cleave, Power AttackAbilities Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 6SQ stonecunning (PH 15)Feats Cleave, DodgeB, Improved InitiativeB, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (dwarven waraxe)B, Weapon Specialization (dwarven waraxe)BSkills Climb +6, Swim -1Possessions +1 full plate, heavy steel shield, +1 dwarven waraxe, masterwork composite longbow (+3 Str bonus), +1 cloak of resistance, 1,900 gpHill Giant    CR 7CE Large giantInit -1; Senses low-light vision; Spot +6, Listen +3Languages GiantAC 20, touch 8, flat-footed 20hp 102 (12 HD)Resist rock catchingFort +12, Ref +3, Will +4Spd 30 ft. (4 squares); base speed 40 ft.Melee greatclub +16/+11 (2d8+10) or slam +15 (1d4+7)Ranged rock +8 (2d6+7)Base Atk +9; Grp +20Atk Options Cleave, Power AttackAbilities Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7Feats Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatclub)Skills Climb +7, Jump +7, Listen +3, Spot +6Possessions greatclub, 5 throwing rocksNow bear with me for a second. I now present the differences between these two. Those in red are disadvantages of the hill giant. Those in blue are advantages of the hill giant.+5 HD+43 hp-6 Init-darkvision+low-light vision-1 language+10 Spd-2 AC+2 BAB+10 Grp+4 Melee Atk+7.5 Melee dmg-1 Ranged Atk (-1 # atk)+5.5 Ranged dmg+5 Reach+3 Fort-1 Ref-2 Will+9 Str-5 Dex+3 Con-4 Int-2 Wis+1 Cha-2 feats-5 skill pointsNow if we go through this list and eliminate everything that really doesn't fit a COMBAT role, we end striking the following things:-darkvision+low-light vision-1 language-2 Wis+1 Cha-5 skill pointsNote: I left Int in because it can be used as a means of deriving tactics although this is by no means an exact science, most DMs at least try to approximate it.Hence, we are left with the following:+5 HD+43 hp-6 Init+10 Spd-2 AC+2 BAB+10 Grp+4 Melee Atk+7.5 Melee dmg-1 Ranged Atk (-1 # atk)+5.5 Ranged dmg+5 Reach+3 Fort-1 Ref-2 Will+9 Str-5 Dex+3 Con-4 Int-2 featsNow the giant has 12 advantages over Tordek to Tordek's 8 advantages. But before we go out and say that means the hill giant has more advantages than Tordek, let's go in and look at these modifiers and give double weight to those that are particularly significant or particularly better and remove those that have a negligible effect.+5 HD 0This is significant, but only comes up for a small number of abilities so it probably doesn't deserve to be mentioned.+43 hp ++This generally means the hill giant has about twice the staying power of Tordek so this definitely deserves more weight.-6 Init -A significant disadvantage, but the hill giant is such a powerhouse that winning initiative is not vital. Now if the hill giant had a far superior modifier to Tordek, it might be worth double weight since the giant can inflict more pain, but it doesn't so it isn't.+10 Spd +Nice, but not a crucial factor usually.-2 AC -Could also be thought of as +2 bonus damage (+4 when two-handed) for power attack. Not immense though.+2 BAB +As above. Not immense.+10 Grp +This is pretty big, but our hill giant doesn't have improved grab or improved grapple so these situations will be rare. We'll let this one stay as is.+4 Melee Atk +Nice and hefty, but not quite devastating. Definitely an advantage but not overwhelming.+7.5 Melee dmg +Similar to above.-1 Ranged Atk (-1 # atk) -Having only one attack compared to Tordek's two is rotten, but ranged attacks is not where our hill giant specializes so it doesn't deserve double weight. We'll leave it in simply because Tordek does get an extra attack.+5.5 Ranged dmg +Given the rarity of heavy ranged damage this might deserve more weight, but since hill giants rarely rely on this attack form and because their attack bonus is so low, this advantage is mitigated to being a typical one and not worthy of more weight.+5 Reach +Significant, but Tordek could achieve the same with Enlarge Person.+3 Fort 0Not a big deal. Both are good at Fort saves and will pass with roughly the same frequency. We can probably toss this out as even being a benefit.-1 Ref 0Also not a big enough deal to deserve double weight as both are poor at Reflex. We can probably toss this out as it will rarely make a difference.-2 Will 0As above.+9 Str +A nice advantage, but most of it is already factored into its damage. So its added benefits (such as tripping, etc.) are not of huge importance.-5 Dex 0This is a bigger liability when you consider the ray penalty spell from Spell Compendium, but since it's not core, it's not a major liability. We can probably just toss this out since most of it is already accounted for in other stats.+3 Con 0The only benefit this confers that isn't already accounted for above is a better ability to forced march, which might come into play if the hill giant is chasing the dwarf, but probably not. So no more weight than normal. We can probably toss this one out as being a rare occurence of importance.-4 Int -The hill giant might not be smart enough to step out of a flanking position (being the equivalent intelligence of a retarded human) and may not recognize the advantages of parley. But such intelligence is not utterly incompetent.-2 feats +Tordek definitely has more flexibility because of this so it deserves to stay, but a couple feats can't grant a HUGE advantage so no added weight.So our revised advantage/disadvantage list looks like this:+5 HD ++43 hp ++-6 Init -+10 Spd +-2 AC -+2 BAB ++10 Grp ++4 Melee Atk ++7.5 Melee dmg +-1 Ranged Atk (-1 # atk) -+5.5 Ranged dmg ++5 Reach +-4 Int --2 feats +So the hill giant now has 11 advantages to Tordek's 4. This is starting to look like a problem. Once we distill the things that are really significant, our hill giant is still a vastly superior opponent. So let's look at how they possibly arrived at the hill giant's CR.Giant CRs increase by +1 for every four HD. So a hill giant gets +3 for his 12 HD. Plus, he is large, so that gives him +1. If we subtract the benefits of being large since we already gave him +1 for that, we have the following: +6 Str, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha, +7 natural armor, low-light vision, rock throwing, and rock catching. Low-light vision isn't worth much usually so we'll ignore it. The ability score boosts favor the monster's archetype (combat) so the penalties to Charisma and Intelligence are negligible for the most part. The Str and Con boosts are probably worth at least +1, while the natural armor is worth at least +1 as well. Also the rock throwing gives the giant a particularly painful form of ranged attack, so let's say it was worth a +1 as well. This gives us the CR 7 of our hill giant.Just to delve into the "correction" area for a moment, there are three routes we could take here. One is that the hill giant is obviously under-CRed and needs to be "upped." The other is that Tordek is over-CRed and needs to be "lowered." The third is a mix of the two. But the main idea here is that I don't think the CRs are balanced at all.</blockquote>

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